Hope

TL – Debra Allcock-Tyler

[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host, Tesse Akpeki, and co host me, Paula Okonneh. “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space to share, to hear, and to tell your stories and your experiences. We get super curious about the dilemmas in your lives and how it’s shaped your future and our futures. And also the journey of those telling the stories. Today, I have a phenomenal woman as our guest, her name is Debra Allcock Tyler, and I’ll tell you a bit about her, a bit, because there’s so much to talk about with her. Debra has worked in the charitable and voluntary sector for over 30 years. She must’ve started when she was 10. And among numerous other roles, she is the co chair of the Soldering on Awards alongside General the Lord Danet. She also is a trustee of Inkind Direct, one of the Prince’s Foundation Charities. And a trustee of the Berkshire Community Foundation. I said there’s a lot, so hold on. She’s also an Africa Advocacy Foundation Ambassador for women and girls at risk of or affected by female genital mutilation and has served as a trustee of several charities, including being the founder of the Small Charities Coalition and was its first chair. She served on the Charity Commission’s SORP committee for over seven years and was the Vice Chair of Governors of White Knights Primary School for six years. I told you there was a lot to talk about her. And so today’s topic is going to be on Hope,  Welcome to “TesseLeads”.

[00:02:14] Debra: Ah, lovely to be here. Lovely to be hanging out with you two.

[00:02:19] Tesse: Hi, Debra. You know, you’re one of my favourite people, and your hope, the hope I see, I feel when I connect with you turns into inspiration, so I call it from hope to inspiration because that’s what it is. I’m so curious, Debra, I’ve known you for so many years and I’m intrigued by your leadership style. How would you describe it? How did you get there?

[00:02:40] Debra: Oh, that’s a big question, Tesse. How does anybody get into it? By accident half the time. You suddenly wake up and think, how the hell did I end up in this job? You know, somebody at some point obviously gave me an opportunity. My leadership style has changed over the years as I’ve made mistakes, as I’ve, you know, wrecked people’s lives, ruined their days, you know, made shocking mistakes in the ways in which I handled them. So I can’t say, I would find it hard to say that I have a style. I think what I prefer to do is to be responsive. If you know what I mean. It’s like to recognize when I’ve got it wrong and try and get it right and to be honest about getting it wrong. I mean, you often hear people say like, I learn all the time and you look at them and you think you don’t really believe that you’re saying that because you think that’s what you’re supposed to say. Cause it sounds arrogant, you know, to not. But actually I’m most of the things, most of the leadership things I’ve done right are because of the things I did wrong. You know, I didn’t march in. I mean, I’m, you know, my, I say this in my book, it’s tough at the top actually at the very beginning, you know, I don’t think anybody’s born a leader. My mother says to me, darling, you were born bossy. It’s not the same thing. Which is absolutely true. You know, I was born bossy.,I wasn’t necessarily born a leader. So I mean, others might say I have a style, I don’t know. But for me, it’s just it’s more a way of thinking. It’s like, I think that everybody I work with and, you know, work alongside in my organization, all adults, that I’m not more important than them, I just have a different role and a different level of responsibility. So I have a different set of tasks to do than they do. Most of them are much better at doing their jobs than I am at doing their jobs. Which is why they’re there and I’m not. You know, the most I can do is create a space for them to shine so that they can do what they need to do well. And of course, the thing is, if you create a space where other people shine, inevitably you get reflected in that shine. So there you go, my style is to bask in reflected glory, you know, to let them do brilliantly and then take all the credit. And say, well of course it’s brilliant, my leadership allowed them to do this fantastic piece of work that I had absolutely nothing to do with.

[00:04:40] Tesse: I love reflective glory. Lovely.

[00:04:47] Debra: Joking aside, essentially, with the leadership, you’re never doing the work. All you’re doing is creating the conditions for other people to be able to do the work. So in a sense, all you ever can be is reflected in glory, which is why I get really a bit irritated with, you know, all these very senior, very wealthy people who say like, you know, I got here because of my own hard work, or I’m rich because of my hard work. And like, no you’re not, you’re rich because of everybody else’s hard work. And like, you got to your senior position because of what other people did, not because of what you did. So yeah, I get, I find that very disingenuous. So thinking that it was my brilliance that got me to this when it wasn’t, it was other people’s brilliance that I just rode off the back of, so to speak.

[00:05:23] Paula: As I said, Debra is so, is a dynamic woman. I love how you’re so human in your responses and your answers. I mean, you say it as it is. I love your mom’s, I love what your mom said. Though I don’t agree because probably, I don’t know you very well. The only side I’ve seen of you is this very funny yet very intellectual person. So bossy, I don’t know if you, but your mom knows you better than I. So whatever my opinion is, it doesn’t matter. But you know, last two or three years, the last three years have been so different. I mean, COVID kind of shaped our lives. And now we look at life before COVID and after COVID. And so I wondered now we’re talking about hope, what hope have you seen arise from a disruptive last three years?

[00:06:14] Debra: Yeah, it’s a really, it’s a good question, Paula, because actually, you know, it has been awful, awful. People have died, they’ve died from the pandemic, they’ve died from hunger, they’ve died from, in wars. You know, the state of the world is really in so many ways so dreadful and it’s incredibly difficult to hang on to hope. You know, and it’s, I always used to sort of say this thing about, you know, kind of optimism. It’s like the trouble is, so often optimism is like, you know, you’ve got a pile of dog poo and it’s really stinky and smelly and you squirt a whole load of whipped cream over it to make it look better but the dog poo is still there and it still stinks. And so I think sometimes when we sort of say to people like be optimistic things will get better I think we dishonor the fact there’s a whole steaming stinking pile of poo that smells really bad and it’s really disgusting. I think one of the things I’ve learned in the last few years is you’ve got to acknowledge the awfulness. You know, you’ve got to be able to say it’s really bad. What’s happened to you is really bad. What’s happened to your family is really bad. What’s happening in the world is really bad and not pretend that it isn’t, you know. Because I don’t think hope comes out of denial. You know, I think failure comes out of denial, actually. If you deny the circumstances in which you’re in, or if you dishonor people’s pain or anguish or the awfulness that’s going on, you know, you can never lead to hope. So I think you have to start by recognizing, you know, the awfulness that people face are facing and have faced. However, I also think that, you know, if you look at, which I like to, like, I try to keep like the big picture in mind as often as I possibly can. And so for me, if you look at the whole of human history, or even actually forget about the whole of human history, just in my own life. There have been times in my life when I’ve been full of despair, when things have been really, really bad for me, and I look back and remember I got through it. You know that I remember an old colleague of mine used to say, this is not all of life it’s just part of life in any bad moment. And there was a time about 14 or so years ago when I was in a very bad way. I was getting divorced. I was completely broke because I was trying to buy my ex husband out of the house. I was under threat of losing my job at DSC. I’d had a massive falling out with my trustees, and I thought I was going to lose my job. I had came home one day to a letter from the police saying that a woman had accused me of running over her baby in the supermarket car park. I hadn’t, but there was this letter she, God knows what, anyway, so I was under this like fear and threat of, you know, being prosecuted for running over somebody’s baby when I hadn’t been there. Anyway, and it was a really, really bad time and I can remember calling my father and it was on a Friday and I remember sobbing and saying, Dad, you know, when is this ever going to get better? It’s just literally, I just, everything was so bad and all coming at me. And I’d also realized I’d never be able to be a mother or, you know, anything like that. So it was a really bad time. And I can remember my father said to me, he said, don’t worry, Debs, it’ll all get better next Tuesday at four o’clock. And it just made me laugh, because of course that was a ridiculous thing to say, that wasn’t good. What it was basically doing was saying things do get better, you know. And in fact now this has become like a family saying, you know, when any of my family’s like, oh it’s really bad, it’s really terrible, you know, we’ll all say, don’t worry, it’ll be fine next Tuesday at four o’clock, you know, and it was that little, firstly it was that humor, and then that little glimmer of actually time does pass. And I think the older you get, the more you realize that most of us do tend to survive things. Not everybody does. You know, there are people for whom life simply isn’t worth living and they can’t carry on, so I don’t want to diminish that. But for most of us, I think we do realize that things pass. I mean, I look at young people and I see, you know, the anguish and despair of failing that first exam, not getting that first job, having a heartburn for the first time, and you feel for them. And you sort of, I sort of think to myself, well, after I thought you think that’s bad, it’s going to get worse, you know, you wait until you get to your fifties. But then I also think that this will pass and that as you get older, you realize things will pass. So I find a lot of hope in that. I really do. And also, I think you and I, Paula and Tesse were talking about it on a separate conversation, but it’s about the fact that in all the awfulness, there are always the helpers. However bad your life is, there’s always somebody to reach out to, who will reach out to you. Whatever’s going on, you know, like during the pandemic, all of those incredible human beings who came out to help and to do vaccinations and to take food parcels and. You know, all those nurses and doctors who sacrifice their home lives in order to be in the hospitals helping people to survive. So, yeah, and so when there are people, there is always hope. Always hope.

[00:10:50] Paula: I love that answer. When there’s people, there’s always hope. And I even love even, even more. It’s going to get better.

[00:10:58] Tesse: I love that. I love that. I love it.

[00:11:01] Paula: I gotta keep that safe.

[00:11:02] Tesse: I love it. This is absolutely beautiful. Debra, what are your hopes? What are your dreams? You know, what dreams do you have? What hopes, personally, professionally?

[00:11:16] Debra: Well, what dreams do I have? I don’t know. I just… I don’t want babies to die. I don’t want children to die. And I want to do what I can to have that not happen. So my hope is that, you know, people come together to not kill each other, basically. My hope is that, you know, women aren’t oppressed. You know, and they stand up for themselves, but also they stand up for each other. You know, I feel like so sad and angry about Afghanistan and what’s happening to the women and girls over there, it fills me with anger, but I also have hope because I know there are people campaigning and there are people. So I believe, I fundamentally believe that these things will get better, that it will change. Because as I was saying earlier, it’s about human beings, isn’t it? In terms of personal hopes, I hope I don’t die too young. You know, I hope I live to a bit of an older age. I hope I make my partner feel happy and fulfilled and, you know feel good about himself. I hope he feels good about himself. I think he does. Yeah, I don’t know really. I can’t ask that question because I’m not particularly ambitious. There isn’t anything I feel I ought to do. To be honest, I’m knackered. You know what I mean? It’s like, I might have to retire if I’m honest. Yeah, so I don’t, I don’t know how to answer that question, Tesse. I’m sorry.

[00:12:30] Tesse: You’ve alluded to it and I met your partner and he adores you and you do make him happy. That’s me and I’m not biased. But you know, it’s kind of when I think of you, I wonder about success and what success means to you. Because I’ve known you now for so many years, and I’ve had the privilege of being one of your associate trainers as well, and it’s been a wonderful experience. You know, being alongside you, seeing your style, feeling better when I leave your presence, and when I, you know, you just have this sunlight, and just a real genuine human being. So what does success mean for you? You know, what is it?

[00:13:09] Debra: What does success mean for me? I think it, I don’t, again, I don’t know how to answer that question. I’m sorry. This is probably the worst interviewee ever.

[00:13:18] Tesse: No, you’re not.

[00:13:19] Debra: I think it kind of links a bit to, you know, they say that when you’re feeling really down and miserable, the best thing you can do is go and do something for somebody else. Because that, cause like, you know, like people can do things for you and you might feel briefly better, but when you go and do something for somebody else, if you make somebody else feel good, if you give them a gift, if you go and volunteer, if you do something that improves somebody else’s life or their day, it makes you feel better. And I think it’s kind of that for me. So, you know, Tesse, you saying that, you know, every interaction that we’ve had makes you feel better and good about yourself. That makes me feel quite emotional. And I feel that’s successful. It’s not money. It’s not job titles. It’s not anything like that. It’s, you know, and I think about it because I do a lot of public speaking, as you know, and I hate doing it. I always feel sick, even doing this podcast, hands sweating, like cramps in my belly. Cause I feel very self conscious, why people don’t like me, all those normal sort of things. But then what happens is when I’m there and I’m speaking to people and, you know, I’m sharing a story or I’m, you know, giving some feedback, feedback, you know, giving some advice or something like that. If I feel that people have gone away and that they felt better as a result of it, I feel okay. So I think it’s that really, it’s, and I don’t want to, cause that all sounds a bit like, you know, you know, other people would be honest and say it’s the job title and the money, but it generally isn’t for me. It’s like I’m at my happiest when people say to me what you’ve just said, Tesse, which is, I feel better because of what you said, or, you know. Like in all my, all the books that I’ve written, you know, they’ve all been about making people, that’s what I’m so, I think that’s also partly why I’m so honest because I’ve sat and listened to people giving speeches, you know, basically saying how brilliant they are, all these really great decisions they made. And I’m like, but I’m flawed and rubbish and hopeless. And so when I listen to people telling me what they do, that’s really, you know, I took this on board and I, it didn’t make me feel better. Whereas when I listened to people saying, you know, actually I got that horribly wrong. That was a real mess, and I was so embarrassed. I feel better. Do you know what I mean? Cause I realized that it’s not just me. So, yeah. So for me, successes, it’s that really.

[00:15:22] Tesse: Yeah. And that’s very, very powerful. It’s very powerful to be helping. It’s very powerful to see that other people’s lives are shaped and framed by some of the things that you’ve done. And that, that is definitely true that, you know, you’re writing “The Battle on the Board” is one of the best books I’ve read on governance, you know, it’s one of the best. And what did I like about it was the humor. It was actually the fact that I’m an ABBA lover, and it was an ABBA, and you made it fun, you can laugh at yourself, and the way, you know, just the way that you are, that Brené Brown would say you’re authentic. She would say that you are, she would say that you are vulnerable, and that is success. That is really, really success. So Paula, what, as you hear Debra saying this, what comes to your mind?

[00:16:10] Paula: I listen to Debra and I see that she really cares about people, you know, you care about how they feel and how, you know, we talked about feedback at an earlier conversation and I sense a very deep love for people. So I want to ask you, how do you care for yourself?

[00:16:32] Debra: Gin. Gin and rum.

[00:16:38] Paula: Gin and rum and coke.

[00:16:40] Debra: Again, I have my family, I have my friends, like just being around people that I love is a way of caring for myself. You know, doing things for the people is a way of caring for myself. I’m very, I’m an over thinker, you know, an obsessive thinker. And, you know, that’s why I find it very difficult to meditate or, you know, to walk or things like that. And I’m not very good at listening to podcasts, ironically, or audiobooks, because, you know, I need to read it for myself, you know. And because I overthink, that means I have to try very hard to distract my mind. And so one of the ways I care for myself is, like, not overthinking, and that’s about doing things for other people. You know, it’s like writing something or making a phone call or speaking to my mom or, you know what I mean? It’s like I try not to. Because if I have too much time in my own head, I end up getting ill, you know, I do struggle with mental health and I have done for years and, you know. I haven’t been hospitalized, but I had a massive breakdown in my early thirties, which was very serious and I was off work and therapy twice a week, medication had to be supervised all the time. And so I’m always very conscious of like overthinking and, you know, and I’ve also, the minute I start to feel like a victim, the minute I start to feel like the world isn’t fair, or why don’t they appreciate me? Or doesn’t everybody realize how wonderful I am or whatever? That’s what makes me ill. The minute I stop worrying about what people think about me and worry more about what I can do for them, the healthier I feel. So that’s how I look after myself really, by looking after other people, because that makes me feel better mentally, physically, emotionally better than demanding that people look after me.

[00:18:08] Tesse: What a joy.

[00:18:10] Paula: Thanks for sharing that, because just you being so vulnerable I know has helped people too. Because people look at you, they look at you as a woman, a successful woman. So for you to say what you just said means a lot. And I know that, I shouldn’t use the word know, but I assume that those early years have shaped you into who you are now, because there’s authenticity written all over you and taking care of people because of what you’ve gone through comes out as authentic and genuine. So thank you for saying that. Thank you for your words about yourself?

[00:18:48] Tesse: Two reflective women. I’m in really good company here. You know, helping being a way of actually staying well. Helping being a way of internalizing our own wellbeing, reaching out to others in a way of just expanding the space inside and coming outside with more joy, more happiness. I’m simply loving it. And the people who will be listening to this podcast, Debra, and they would be saying, you know, maybe they are going through a tough time. Maybe they’re struggling. A lot of people are. What words of wisdom or insight do you have for them? Maybe they’re at that point that you were when you talked to your dad about everything, the balls are dropping and I don’t know even how to put one foot in front of the other. It’s that bad. Any words for those people?

[00:19:39] Debra: I think really what I’ve just said, Tesse, is do something for somebody else even if it’s just, you know, when you do the shop, buy a bouquet of flowers for your neighbour and just leave it on the front door. Or, you know, tiny, tiny little acts of kindness to someone else make you feel better even when things are really bad, or at least they have done for me. You know, it’s like my neighbor who sadly passed away at Christmas, but you know, she was on her own quite a bit. And so I frequently used to just buy her flowers and she’d say, Oh, you know, and I’m like, everybody deserves flowers. You know, you should have flowers in your life. And if you’re not going to buy them for yourself and your sons aren’t going to buy them for you, I’m going to buy them for you. You know, and that, and that always used to make me feel better. You know, there’s kind of a selfishness and altruism in some ways. And I, but I think that’s okay. I think if you feel better about yourself or doing something for somebody else, so I would say when all the balls are dropping, when you feel there’s nowhere to turn, go and do something for somebody else, even if it’s a tiny thing, even if it’s just a text message saying, I love you mum, or I love you my daughter, or, you know, I was thinking about you today Tesse, or whatever, even just those tiny little messages, it will massively please the person who comes, you know, who receives it. You can’t help but feel better about yourself when you’ve done something nice for other people.

[00:20:52] Tesse: Wow, I love it. I’d like to just drop in a few, you know, some comment on that, listening to what Paula said and what you’re saying. There’s a woman who I encountered, her name is called Jess Baker, and she’s a psychologist, but she’s also written a book, which is on healthy helping, healthy helping. I love her work. I totally love her work. But the important thing that I took away from going to a workshop she ran was the importance of taking care of ourselves as we take care of others otherwise, burnout comes in and, you know, other things come in. But for me, Debra I have known you for so many years, as I’ve said, and I’ve always experienced you as a healthy helper. I love you so much. And I see how your staff care for you. I see how your trustees generally, you know, embrace you. But one of the things for me that stands out as a star in my sky is how you give feedback. I love it. How you encourage, how you actually, and you said this to me, I don’t know if you remember, but I remember it very well. I was very despondent about a piece of work that happened when, you know, it just didn’t go the way I wanted it to go. But the people who commissioned it thought it went the way they wanted it to go. And you actually looked at me when in a little room and you looked at me and you said, Tesse, listen to the people who said it went well, that you did deliver it for them. Listen to your intention. Did you achieve it? And I said, yes, I did. Did you do the best? You said, yes, you did. And you said, that’s all you can do. And more than that, it’s because you were successful in doing what you intended to do that the client asked you to do. That’s why some of the stuff that is coming back is coming. Take that away and I listened to that feedback, I listened to it and it’s helping me today. So today, I’m an advisor to two bishops in London and in Willesden. Kind of like, because of what you said to me, because you said you did what your heart, you did what the client wanted. So if others were cheesed off by that that’s on them. And I remember, you’ve changed my life and Paula knows how much the Church of England work is making me happy. She knows, I tell her, but part of it was you giving me that piece of feedback.

[00:23:02] Debra: Oh, Tesse. Well, it was probably true, you know? Yeah. Cause that is a thing, isn’t it? About, you know, like, when you can say something to somebody and genuinely mean it, it lands so well, doesn’t it? When you’re able to. Yeah, it does. I mean, all I was doing to you, Tesse, was reflecting back, exactly what you’d have said to me if the situations were reversed. You know, we do tend to focus ever such, well, I definitely do. You know, I remember years ago, I was giving a speech, and it was about communication, but it was to about a hundred headteachers. I mean, headteachers are scary when you’re a kid. They don’t get less scary when you become an adult, do they? If anything, they’re scarier. And not only that, it was in a lecture theatre in Warwick University, where it’s one of those lecture theatres where you’re at the bottom and all the seats are above you, like in the Coliseum or, you know, in those kind of like arenas. So all of the people you’re speaking to are looking down on you, which I found very intimidating anyway. And I was giving the speech and there was this chap who sat sort of a few rows up on the corner and the whole way through, well, most of the way through my speech, he was twitchy in his seat. He was frowning. He kept crossing his arms and all the rest of it. It was really putting me off. And I was like, oh my God, this guy’s really unhappy with what I’m saying. And then about 10 minutes before the end of my speech, he got up. And because of the way the lecture theater was designed, he had to walk in front of me to get out of the lecture theatre. And I was absolutely mortified. I’m like, oh my God, like I’ve done such a bad job that one of these head teachers actually left the audience. It’s going to be awful. You know, anyway, it was terrible. Anyway, I got to the end of my speech and then people came down and they were like, oh, that was really great, really inspirational, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, well, yeah, what about that one guy? Because he was the only one I could think about. But what was really funny is as I left the auditorium after everybody had gone, he was stood in the corridor waiting for me. And my heart went, oh! He’s going to say something awful. I can’t cope with it. You know, you know me, I’ve already said, Tesse, I’m not very good at receiving negative feedback. I don’t want to hear it. If you’re going to tell me something rubbish, go away. And then he apologized to me. Said I’m really sorry. I think I had something dodgy at lunch and it was really affecting my tummy. And I just, I said, I was really enjoying what you were saying, but I had to leave because I had to get to the toilet because I was in a really bad way. And isn’t it interesting. And I’ve never forgotten that story because it’s always said to me. You have no idea what’s happening for somebody. If somebody’s given you bad feedback about something, it’s probably actually not about you at all. It’s about something that was going on in their life. And if you can just start from, you poor thing, what happened to you to be so cross with me? I mean, that’s not to say you should absolve yourself of responsibility of, you know, because we do do things. We’ve got to be alive to the fact that we can upset people, but you get my general point. Never forgotten that experience. Never forgotten that gentleman. Now, you know, sort of middle age, slightly balding, slightly reddish nose. You know, I remember that, obviously, because he hadn’t been well, I’m guessing that’s what the red nose was. You never know what’s happening to other people, ever. And so, yeah, I try really hard just to start by everybody has got some, some battle, some demon, some thing that they’re battling in their own lives, you know. Yeah, none of us are unique in that. And if you can start from when people are acting up or being ugly or being nasty or unkind to you, a good place to start is thinking something really bad is happening for that poor person. And I don’t want to make it worse, even if I can’t make it better.

[00:26:14] Tesse: Paula. Wow. I’m just in awe.

[00:26:17] Paula: What a story and what a visual story and what a lesson, you know. You learn that I have even learned from that, you know, looking, not judging people by what you see, but what’s actually happening in their lives. Wow. And that’s why we do “TesseLeads”. And to our audience, you see, your precious stories and your lives do matter to us. Please share them with us, just like you heard Debra share that story and her story and how it impacted her life. So many people have been encouraged and nurtured when they know that they’re not alone. So, if you just enjoyed that, please head over to any way that you listen to your podcast, whether it’s “Apple Podcasts”, “Google Podcasts”, or “Spotify”. And please subscribe to our show. And if you have found this helpful, we ask that you leave us a review. And if you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please send us a note. And last but not least, if you’d like to be a guest on our show, please head over to our new website. Which is “www.TesseLeads.com” to apply. We’d love to have you on, just like we so enjoyed having Debra Allcock-Tyler today. Thank you.

[00:27:41] Tesse: Thank you, Debra. Awesome. Awesome.

[00:27:43] Paula: What a powerful story.