Thriving On Vulnerability

[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host, Tesse Akpeki and co-host Paula Okonneh. Our podcast “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space. Here guests share how they are navigating a diverse range of challenges, confronting their dilemmas, and shaping their futures. Our guest today is none other but the awesome Dallin Cooper. Dallin is a speaker, he’s a consultant, and he is the author of a leadership book called “Get on the Bull”. He has founded and sold both a marketing agency and a sustainable dog chew company. And he also just launched his own podcast called “Ethics for Humans”. There’s some fun things that we found out about Dallin, and one of them is that he grew up as a shepherd. Can you believe that? A second thing is that he has lived in China for some time. And the third is that he onced rehabilitated two traumatized rescue Al Packers. Today we are going to be talking about rising to the challenge, and we will have none other than the amazing, awesome, wonderful Dallin Cooper tell us all about that. So welcome to “TesseLeads” and I’ll turn it over to you and Tesse.

[00:01:45] Tesse: Hi, welcome Dallin, and I’m just so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for saying yes, .

[00:01:54] Dallin: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:57] Tesse: You know, you are amazing. I’ve read your work. I heard you on sound view, and I just thought, wow, you’re just someone who I want to connect with. And when I talked to Paula, she agreed. And you know, I’ve listened to a number of shows where you’ve been a podcast guest. And I have come across a book called “Get on the Bull”. And there’s something that stood out for me. And this is a saying, “when you become a person that can be trusted, you become someone that can lead, uplift, and make meaningful change”. Please say a bit more about that.

[00:02:39] Dallin: So I think that trust is probably one of the most important things in the world, period. And there are a few other people who have done some really cool things in the trust space. One of the first attempts at writing a book that I made, and that book has not yet come into existence, and maybe one day it will, was very much all about trust. Because the more I thought about what is it that makes people happy? What is it that makes strong relationships? What is it that makes people fun to be around? To make them good leaders? To make them good bosses? No matter what question I asked, the answer ended up coming back to trust, right? Like, do you wanna make more money? Well, then you need to trust people and they need to trust you. Do you wanna have more free time? Well, you need to trust people to handle things, and they need to trust you to take care of things with a flexible schedule. Like insert whatever your goal in life is here, and the answer is probably trust. And I said that quote at one point, because it really is, if you want to accomplish most things, trust is one of the prerequisites. And obviously that leads into a whole field of research about how to develop trust and what trust is, and that becomes a big thing. But It’s very much a unifying characteristic of the people who you wanna be around and who are doing great things. Who are able to make differences in the world. We were chatting briefly before the show that many of the governments were in different countries. But one unifying factor we have is that governments tend to be really dysfunctional sometimes. And a lot of the population is sitting there being like, wow, why can’t our government just get it together? And it’s because a lot of times half the population doesn’t trust them at any given point in time, right? Can you imagine if you just literally trusted every politician in our current world, I would call you an idiot if you trusted every politician. But wouldn’t that be awesome if they were all trustworthy? They made campaign promises and then they all did them. Like, wow, how neat would that be? And a lot of our governments and our systems and our structures are just completely paralyzed. They’re kind of cut off at the knees because they don’t trust each other. The different people within the system, the administration, the government, they don’t trust each other. The people they’re supposed to be helping don’t trust them. They don’t trust the people they’re helping. And so then you just create this giant mess and nobody actually gets helped, and nothing is actually made better.

[00:05:26] Tesse: I love that answer, cause sometimes another thing that happens is paralysis analysis. You know, people just analyze things to death and do nothing. And it gets so hard to have access and all those kind of things. But you’re right that it all starts with trust. Trust the competent, the capability, the likability, the humility, the echo rather than ego. All those things go into trust, and I really like what you’ve said. In fact, I don’t just like it, I love it. Paula. I love it so much. I’m kind of like gonna sit with that love. I’m passing over to you.

[00:06:00] Paula: Yeah, I mean, I love it. Especially when I know that Dallin talked earlier on prior to this podcast recording, about ethical leadership. And when we think about trust, you think it goes hand in hand with ethics. And I know you place a lot of emphasis on ethics and all, but is still ethical leadership. So tell me about that. You’ve gave us a very good apt description on what trust was. Where does that come into play with ethics? Are they one on the same thing or not? And I know this is a bit unfair. This seems like a very complicated question, but it isn’t. It’s just what I know one of the things you are passionate about.

[00:06:42] Dallin: So this feels kind of like one of those, a square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares type of things. I’m not sure which one is the square and which one’s the rectangle though. Right? It’s like trust and ethics go together a lot, and many of the principles are the same, right? I would say that honesty is a fundamental ingredient for building trust, right? Nothing’s gonna destroy trust quite like lying to people all the time. And most of us would also say that honesty is a core element of ethical behavior. I also believe that a very important part of building trust is accountability, right? Taking responsibility for your actions. We are all going to make mistakes. That is life. Often you actually build more trust by making mistakes than if you do everything right. Because if you let people see you make mistakes, and then you let them see you fix the mistakes, now they know how you handle mistakes. So if all you’ve ever seen from someone is the perfect shiny surface, you have to ask yourself like, okay, what are they hiding? What’s it look like when everything goes wrong? Because is this all front? Is it all fake? Is this like manicured? So when I was doing digital marketing, a lot of my local marketing clients, you know, a dentist or whatever, would work really hard to get all the five star reviews on like Google. I would tell them like, don’t try and get rid of the one star reviews. You actually want one star reviews, because a business that has 4.8 stars or 4.9 stars actually performs better than one that has all five. Cause if you have a thousand 5 star reviews, it’s sketchy. It’s like nobody has that many customers and never messes up. Right? It’s like, did you buy these? Did you bribe people? Are they all your family and friends? Like It feels off to us, and it’s like nobody’s that perfect. You know if you only have like three or four or five star reviews sure, that’s fine. But when you’re up into the hundreds, it’s like really? You’ve never messed up? You’ve never had a misunderstanding that made a customer angry? Yeah, right. What’s more likely is that you have a handful of one star reviews and then people go to the one star reviews and they read the review, and then they read your response. Because they know that you mess up. Like that’s implied by being a person. You aren’t gonna convince someone you don’t make mistakes. They wanna see how you handle it. So I think accountability is a crucial part of building trust, cause people want to see how you handle your mistakes. I would say that accountability is a crucial part of ethics, because, again, if you’re wanting to be a good person, if you’re wanting to be responsible to those around you, you’re gonna mess up. But it’s how you handle those mistakes. It’s how you own them. Take responsibility for your actions. Ethics is kind of a scary field to be in. Because at some point, I’m gonna say something, probably a lot of some things and people are gonna really hate me for it. They are going to be like, but Dallin you are supposed to be this good person that did all the things right. And like, why don’t you practice what you preach? And it’s like, I’m probably gonna lie at some point and someone’s gonna be like, Dallin, you always talk about honesty and how important it is. And it’s like, yep, it sure is important, but that doesn’t mean that I am 100% at it all the time. Like I’m trying. That’s kind of the terrifying accountability thing of this entire field. It’s like trying to build your reputation on helping people to be better people. And it’s like, I don’t know if I’m even a good person yet. So I’m talking in circles a little bit. But you can take these principles. Honesty, accountability, I would say compassion also. Whether you call it compassion or empathy, consideration, perspective. I’ve used all of those words in different ways of caring about how other people are feeling and what they’re thinking and trying to understand their needs. All of those things are things that build trust. They are also things that make you a more ethical person. I would say that ethical people are likely more trustworthy. I would think that there’s probably a correlation that people who are trustworthy are usually also ethical. But it probably isn’t always the case. I think we’ve probably all trusted people before and found out that we shouldn’t have. Because they were not being morally upright, and that’s how it goes sometimes. So there’s a lot of overlap, and there’s a lot of overlap in the principles for sure. A leader who is trusted and worthy of trust is more likely to be unethical leader and vice versa. But they aren’t like quite exactly the same thing, maybe that’s just pedantic.

[00:11:36] Paula: I love your answer. What was going through my mind is that he’s answered it as a true millennial, and why I say that is that. One thing I love about millennials is their honesty and their ability to be transparent. And that has worked in the favor of baby boomers. In that what millennials have done is to say, “hey, we are all humans, we’re gonna mess up. But what we can work on is seeing how we can correct our mistakes and try not to make those mistakes, knowing fully well that you may make those mistakes. But the effort seen in making the correction is what makes you a lot more approachable. And in some ways makes us more compassionate, so that people can see us as who we are. Because I think better leaders are leaders who show those that they’re leading that, look, I’m human. I’m going to err. I’m gonna make mistakes. But I’m here because I wanna help you, and we can grow by me growing. So I love your answer. Thank you for that.

[00:12:41] Dallin: It is interesting. I feel like we’ve really developed that level of, okay, we’re gonna mess up. We’re gonna make mistakes. It’s okay. You need to just, you gotta own those mistakes and grow and move on. And that seems to apply up until you reach a certain level of fame. And then it’s like if you’re really famous, then like cancel culture kicks in, and it’s like, no mistakes or you’re out. And I don’t know how that happened, where it’s like everybody gets mercy up until this level of famous. And then if you say something that we don’t like 10 years ago. It’s over. Your career is ruined. Okay, hopefully I just never end up that famous. Hopefully I’m.

[00:13:26] Tesse: You know I love what you’re saying Dallin. In fact, you can see I’m a fan of yours. You know, I’m super fan of Dallin Cooper. And you know what you’re saying and what Paula has mentioned about you being a millennial, and I think for me that is so rewarding for our future. Cause you know, our future is in good hands because of millennials today. I’m a big believer in that. But, I’m going to make a comment and then ask a question. Cause I’m a big fan of Brene Brown’s work on vulnerability. And being a fan of her work on vulnerability. And she’s also written a book, co-written it on “Shame and Guilt in the Black community”. And that also touched me about how race and vulnerability are tied together. So I’ve read that. And I also recently came across Gary Chapman’s book, which is on Apologies. And the types of apology, how to say sorry and actually mean it. Now, what these things are doing is a revelation to me, because I try and practice what these books are saying, and I’m finding out not easy. Not easy to say, sorry, and admit I mess up and I use what I’m gonna do to put it right and all those kind of things. But on a more kind of deeper level, I’m actually enjoying my life more now, because of that space of release of not being perfect. I never was. So the thing about being, I would ever be perfect in itself was a myth. It was never, never true. So that release of I’m human, I get it wrong, I mess up, I can cause correct, you know, all that. As long as I have a cause, I have a purpose. All those sort of things are so helpful. So I’m gonna come back to you, and this is my question. How did you get to be with this mindset at your age? I mean, I’m kind of like, whoa. How did you get here? What was your journey like coming to this place where you are now?

[00:15:15] Dallin: As my wife would say, it must be terrifying to live in my brain. And that is the thing that she has told me on multiple occasions. You wanna talk analysis paralysis. I am not fun to go to lunch with. Menus are just terrifying to me cause there’s so much to think about. And one of the things that’s kind of hard is we have no clue how other people think, right? Like I’ve often wished I could switch brains with my wife for a day, just like see through her eyes. Because it’s like you must have a fundamentally different view of just like the world than me. And it would be very interesting to be able to see and feel and think how she does. The amount of like compassion and perspective that would give would be so cool. Cause all we have is like our own little brain and narrative. So I don’t know if I actually think that different from like my wife. But I just think about stuff a lot. Like somebody asked me on one of these things, like, how do you come up with these ideas for like this book and these videos and all the things you do? And I was kind of stunned. I was like, I don’t know. You see things happen and then I just think about them for a long time until stuff comes out, right? Until I come up with ideas or answers. And I don’t think that I have extra special insight powers or anything. But I actually really love vulnerability as a topic, because it is the other side of trust, right? We talked about trust and like vulnerability is extending trust. It’s trusting someone else, not getting them to trust you, but you are trusting them not to hurt you. And so it’s like giving someone else the chance. And I have for a very long time just loved that idea. If Brene Brown didn’t already just have it on lock, I would have pursued vulnerability as a topic of expertise more. But it’s like, you know what, Brene, you got this covered way better than I think I ever could. Because I quickly realized after the awkward teenage years, which are just a tough time for everyone and nobody’s comfortable with themselves. I just kind of stopped having shame. I thrive on vulnerability. Like I think it’s a blast often to the concern of everyone around me, because I don’t have any topic that I feel like is off topic. Like I’m comfortable talking with anyone about anything, and vulnerability is something that I really enjoy. I like the act of trusting people. And I think that has caused me to put myself in a lot of situations where I get to learn from other people. Because I don’t have a lot of barriers. I don’t have like the shell and the mask that many people put up to try to protect themselves from that vulnerability. And because of that, I get to just be me and I get to make mistakes, and I get to learn from people who have a lot more experience. And I think any particular wisdom that I might have at this point in my life just comes from being willing to talk about all the things with all the people, and hear what they have to say. Because there have been a lot of times that I’ve said, oh my goodness guys, like here’s this crazy idea. Wouldn’t it be cool if this were the case? Or have you ever thought about this neat concept? And then somebody says “Dallin that’s idiotic, right? Like you couldn’t do that and that would never work. And you say, “oh, you’re right, that is idiotic”. But what if it were this way? And then that version’s better, and they’re like, “okay, maybe that makes sense”. But a lot of times if you’re scared of the vulnerability, you never get past that first step. First, you might not be comfortable sharing the idea at all, so you never get the feedback. Or you share the idea and you get the response down, that’s idiotic. And that shuts you down. Because nobody likes being told that their idea that they think is cool is not cool. I don’t know if you’ve heard the stereotype of like, you know, the kid in their physics class. It’s like their freshman physics class and they’re like, wait, but what if we put a race car on a train and it creates infinite energy and we solve the energy crisis forever? And it’s like, okay, I know that you’ve learned one month’s worth of physics. But I don’t think you actually can solve the energy crisis like way smarter people than you have tried. I was that guy. I was that guy who was like, “hey, it’s one month into ethics class, guys what if this revolutionized ethics forever”? And you know, ethics professor is like, “okay, Dallin that’s a fun idea and all, but there’s some bigger pictures here”. And being willing to just put the stuff out there and get feedback and get criticism, and keep going despite that. Not letting that make you withdraw and quit being vulnerable. I don’t know if that, that’s a very interesting question.

[00:20:11] Tesse: We thought long and hard to ask you that. Cause the things that you’re bringing up to my mind and that is vulnerability to practice it. It’s kind of scary. But as I said, for me, I found it quite liberating. So one of the things I did, I went for counseling, and for the first time in my life I invited my friend to come to this counseling session. I’ve never ever ever ever taken anybody with me to my counseling session. But this was this year. And taking her to this session was taking a risk. But we have drawn closer because she came to that session. We’ve actually become even closer friends because she saw the vulnerability. And just today she just dropped by and said, you are my mind, I’m just thinking about you. Guess what? She was right. I needed her with me today. So there’s something about what you’re saying about the barriers come down. You’re extending trust. But more than that, people see each other rather than see past each other. They actually see you. Obviously not everybody that you can do that with. But when you do it, and when you imagine extending that to our workplaces. Imagine how we are when we are saying, actually, I’m not coping today, I’m struggling here. Imagine how it is when we celebrate together and we know what we are celebrating. Envy and jealousy doesn’t become part of that equation. Just imagine what becomes possible. And with you Dallin, I think we should do more of it. We should actually take the risk and be vulnerable in a safe way, but actually be in that space. Paula, what do you think? What are your thoughts here?

[00:21:50] Paula: I love everything you’re saying. Because yeah, when barriers come down, lots of things float to the top, you know. It’s almost like a little child who says what’s on their mind, but you get really honest answers. You know, when you are vulnerable, when you’re open to hearing things from a different angle and hearing different perspectives. For example, I know we talked about being in different countries and how the cultures differ. There’s some things I’ve sat back in my quiet time and thought, “hmm, that’s a better way of doing what I’ve always known all my life”, you know? So, but Dallin, I love what you said about being vulnerable, because it’s allowed you to be you. You know, people now know this is who Dallin is. And so some of the questions or some of the ideas you put out there, people are thinking it, but they’re not brave enough to say it. And when you do say it, you now put it out open for discussion. And change comes about by being honest and saying things and looking at things from different angles. So I’m happy that you are talking about it. I’m happy that you are comfortable with being vulnerable. Because that’s where change comes about. Many times people talk, in my opinion, negatively about millennials. But I love millennials. I love Gen Z. Because I think they are addressing things that have been there and not been talked about, but need to be talked about.

[00:23:12] Dallin: So the secret is I’m just, I’m barely a millennial, just barely. I’m right at the bottom edge. That shows you how old millennials are now. It’s like, I’m like the youngest millennial. I’m like, there are some, depending on where you draw the line, there are some who would say that I’m the next one, is that Gen Z? I don’t even know.

[00:23:34] Paula: Yes, it’s Gen Z. Yeah. But you’re setting the stage so that Gen Z can do some of the things that you guys haven’t been able to accomplish. Because sometimes what happens is that as we get older and especially when we start families, we are like, okay, that was a great idea when I was 24, but now I have two mouths to feed or more responsibility. This is not such a great idea.

[00:23:58] Dallin: That’s the reason I sold the marketing agency the first time. That was the first business I started. I only sold it once. But that’s the first business I started and you know, we were doing pretty good and it was a blast. But it’s that whole like, I don’t know how much money I’m gonna make next month type life, right? Like that entrepreneurship life of some months are really great, and then some months are really tight. And when my wife was pregnant with our first son, it was like, you know, just the two of us, we make enough to at least get by all the time. But suddenly, once there’s a tiny person that relies on you in the equation, the idea of not knowing how much money you’re gonna make next month or whether you’re gonna be able to buy all the food, it suddenly becomes a lot more terrifying. It’s like, all right stability would be good. Just a little bit .

[00:24:50] Paula: Absolutely. Well, Dallin all good things do have to come to an end. I mean, we could have this conversation for hours, but it looks like we’re probably gonna have to have another podcast recording with you. But I do have one last question, and that is, what are your key takeaways for our listening audience? I know what I’ve gotten from this. But what do you wanna share? So that when the podcast ends, they can say, “hmm, he said something that has stuck with me”.

[00:25:19] Dallin: Oh man, the pressure is on. You may have noticed I am not the best at being succinct.

[00:25:26] Paula: You are.

[00:25:26] Tesse: Yeah, you are.

[00:25:28] Dallin: So I would say from our conversation here, and it’s is such a dangerous one to paint with broad strokes. But in situations where your safety isn’t at risk or anything, push the boundary of what you are comfortable being vulnerable with. Because everybody wants to be trusted, right? There’s a lot out there about how can I better relationships by helping me trust me more? How can I be more trustworthy? But we also have to remember that everyone else feels that way too. And nobody can ever be trusted if we never give them a chance to prove themselves as trustworthy. And the only way we can do that is by being vulnerable. We have to put ourselves in a spot where we run the risk of getting hurt. So that other people have the chance to become trustworthy. And often that will end up putting them in a situation where they’re willing to be vulnerable with you. And just the last thought, again, I think of it so much with my kids, that often if I want them to be honest and open up with me, I need to be honest and vulnerable and open up with them first. We model what we see, we reciprocate. So if you want someone to trust, be vulnerable and trust them first. And that’s really scary. But it makes a big difference in relationships and in life. And like what’s the worst case scenario? Again, outside of extreme circumstances, like you get hurt and you find out that that person isn’t super trustworthy and you can move on and that’s how it goes. But the best case scenario is you make a lifelong friend and grow and learn and become a way better person. And personally I think that’s worth the risk.

[00:27:16] Paula: I am leaving with that phrase in my mind, that no one can be trusted if we don’t give them a chance to be trustworthy. So push that boundary. I love it Dallin, I do love it. And so to our precious listeners, we want you to know that your stories and your lives matter. Just like Dallin said, give everyone an opportunity to prove themself first. Don’t make them guilty first. Innocent until proven guilty in other words. And so sharing your stories with others could support, encourage and nurture them. Listeners may be reassured by knowing they’re never alone. And so for our listeners, please head over to “Apple Podcast”, “Google Podcast”, “Spotify”, or anywhere you listen to podcasts and please click subscribe. And if you have found “TesseLeads” helpful, please let us know in your reviews. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, send us a note. And if you would like to be a guest on our show, “TesseLeads”, head over to “www.tesseleads.com” to apply. We would love to have you. Thanks again Dallin. You’ve been amazing.

[00:28:32] Tesse: You’ve been amazing. Awesome. Refreshing

[00:28:34] Dallin: Thank you for having me.

[00:28:37] Paula: Refreshing. I love that.

[00:28:38] Tesse: Refreshing, honestly. Re-energizing.