Uplifted Under the Bonnet

[00:00:00] ​Music

[00:00:05] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads with your host, Tesse Akpeki, and co host me, Paula Okonneh. “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space to share, hear, and tell your stories, your experiences, and everything about you that you’re comfortable sharing. We get super curious about the dilemmas and shaping their futures, and the journey we are on with our guests. So today I have a phenomenal guest, her name is Jane Gunn, and she’s also known as the “Barefoot Mediator”. Let me tell you a bit about her. She’s an expert in the field of conflict resolution. She’s a trained mediator and facilitator, and she’s known to her clients as the “Barefoot Mediator”. Jane enables people to deal with difference and diversity in ways that are non adversarial and are solution focused. Her mission is to create a community of resolutionnaires equipped to lead and inspire others in times of change, in times of challenge, and in times of crises. She’s the author of two popular books. One of them is “How to Beat Bedlam in the Boardroom and Boredom in the Bedroom”. Did I get that right? All right. And second book is “The Authority Guide to Conflict Resolution”. Jane has spoken at the United Nations, at the White House, and at the European Commission. And she’s got a powerful Message to share supported by practical tools and techniques that apply to organizations of all sizes and across all sectors. A fun fact about her is that she’s called Bear by her grandchildren. So we are in for a treat today. Welcome to “TesseLeads”, Jane. Glad to have you here.

[00:02:03] Jane: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. 

[00:02:06] Paula: Tesse. 

[00:02:07] Tesse: I can’t tell you how excited I am Jane, to have you on the show. I mean saying yes, that’s a gift. And because of the brilliance you bring, you know, the expertise, the experience, the kindness, the compassion, we’re calling today’s topic “Uplifted Under the Bonnet”. Because we want you to bring your authentic self to this conversation. You know, over the time, and you probably don’t know this, but I have listened to a number of your videos on YouTube. I’ve actually listened to a number of webinars that you’ve given, and I’ve read your books. And I can’t wait to read the one that is coming out soon. And what I take away from reading your books and listening to you is how you lay bare the way that crisis is hurting the world, hurting communities, hurting people, and how you offer guides, stepping stones to ways of dealing with those. So I’m so curious again to hear how this passion for mediation developed in you and how it continues to evolve.

[00:03:16] Jane: Yes. Thank you, Tesse. Well, it’s interesting to think back to where the gem of an idea come from. You know, where do you actually find your passion for dispute resolution? I mean, one of the things is I trained as a lawyer, and even while I was working as a lawyer, people would say to me, “oh, there’s a very difficult client”, yeah, in inverted commas, because what is a difficult client, but send them to Jane, she can deal with them. I’d say I found even in my legal practice that I somehow had the mindset or the technique or whatever for managing people that others found difficult or others found, and I didn’t necessarily find these people to be difficult or challenging. I actually found them to be quite interesting. We often became good friends. So that was something. But you know if you go further back, it’s to think what in your formative years creates an interest in dispute resolution. And I’ve spoken before, and I did tell you this, that you know, I think my mother had a complex childhood, probably with some trauma in it that I’m not fully aware of. But she described her childhood as just about bearable. And one of the things that I know for sure had happened to her is that she was beaten at school for being left handed, for being wrong, if you like. You know, there’s a right way to do things and there’s a wrong way to do things. And if you do things the wrong way, we’re going to beat you. And that was also seen in those days, being left handed was seen as a sign of the devil. In other words, you’re less than, less than human, less than good. So I don’t know exactly what my mother struggled with in childhood. But she described the childhood as just about bearable and she never spoke about it. So something there, something there that I have never been able to fully understand because she didn’t speak about it. But one of the things with a family trauma is that it repeats itself or the patterns of behavior continue until we recognize what they are and manage to stop them. And one of the challenges I found with my mother is, she wasn’t an angry person. She didn’t shout at us in particular, but if she was unhappy with us as children, she would just go silent and she would stop talking. And that silence might last for, you know, a few hours a day, but it might last for several days. And I think when you’re a small child, and your mother stops talking to you, that actually, although it wouldn’t have been intentional, is a form of abuse because that’s how it impacts on the child. The child doesn’t know why it is no longer loved, why communication isn’t allowed, why you can’t speak to your parent, why you can’t share your thoughts and your feelings. And so I think then as a child and you develop coping mechanisms. How do I survive? Survival mechanisms. How do I survive? How do I keep myself psychologically safe in this situation? Because I don’t feel safe, because I don’t feel that I’ve got someone looking out for me. I feel I’ve lost that connection with my mother. Now I look back, I think, I’m sure that that sense of not knowing how to initiate difficult conversations with my mother, the outcome of that was that later on, when maybe I was a teenager and I wanted to share something or ask my mother a difficult thing, you know, something that I thought she might be displeased about, I would then rehearse different ways in my head of doing that. I could either not talk to her, or there was option A, I might use these words this time, or option B. So I would run all these scenarios through my head and think. What shall I do? Shall I not say anything? Shall I use option A you know? And that would be again a coping mechanism, a survival mechanism to say, you know, and it’s a good one, because when you then move into the workplace, what of course running scenarios and options through your head is a great technique to have. But some of these techniques I realised I was actually practising in childhood, long before I knew what mediation or dispute resolution or even a career in the law would look like. 

[00:07:38] Tesse: Thank you for sharing that. Because as you say, it touches my heart that as a child the message may have been, don’t ask this or you don’t understand and you don’t know, so you make up different scenarios. 

[00:07:50] Jane: Yes. 

[00:07:51] Tesse: And not just for coping, but also the narrative, the story you’re telling yourself about why mum’s not talking to you today and so on. Did you actually get to a stage where you were able to have a healthier connection with mum when she actually stopped doing that or minimised doing it? 

[00:08:09] Jane: Oh, much more, I think probably when I left home to go to law school. But then when I became a mother, then, and I’ve found the same with my children because as you know I’m a grandmother, then you begin to find a different bond and the relationship changes. And I think that was true for me, it’s been true for me with my daughters. One of my daughters said to me when she had her first child. “Oh, now I see”, “now I understand”. The complexity of trying to nurture and guide a small child’s development is beyond compare, shall we say. And you need all the skills you’ve got. And if something in your background, or in your family background, or in your long family background has prevented that ability to, I suppose treat your child with love and humanity. You have to dig deep and find out what it is. And we can stop the cycle of trauma once we know that, that we have the ability to do. 

[00:09:14] Paula: Well said. Yes, as a mom you know I realize, yeah our parents were different generations and did things differently. And behind the scenes before we got on this, I was with Tesse and Jane how my mom used to tell us “if you don’t hear, you will feel”. And so the only thing that I understood when it came to feeling was physical because in those days they believed in smacking and keeping a child in order by letting them know who is the parent here. And you know, as my children grew, I realized something that, hmm parents are really human beings who just happen to have children. It doesn’t come with a playbook. It doesn’t come with instructions. And every child is so different. You’re trying to figure it out with yourself as the parent and with that child, that is your responsibility and trying to figure them out. So, you know, I really see that grandparents sometimes are better parents. 

[00:10:08] Jane: Yeah, I can agree with that for sure, Paula. You know, you are able to be a little bit more detached. You’ve got that wisdom. When you have your child first, you just think that nobody has taught you that. I mean, I think we learn all the wrong things at school, don’t we? We don’t learn about humanity and human relationships and children in childhood. We learn about ridiculous things like how to add four and two together. It’s like, what’s that about? We don’t learn the skills that we really need to survive in life, and certainly nobody teaches, so all we’ve got to go on is what we’ve experienced in the past. And that could be from our own parents, it might be from seeing other parents, you know, friends and other relatives. But very much what was our own experience, and then a choice to, if we are conscious. So you come to this sort of idea of conscious parenting, am I conscious of what I’m doing and why I’m doing it ? We’re mostly not, we’re mostly not doing conscious parenting. We’re doing survival parenting. How do I get through the next 24 hours? 

[00:11:22] Paula: Absolutely right. You know, and so I’m curious as to then, your grandchildren call you “Bear”. There must be a reason for that. 

[00:11:32] Jane: Well, it partly came from me. So my daughters had a nickname for me and they called me, now wait for it, “Bernard Bear”. Don’t ask me why, but my nickname was “Bernard” and then it became “Bernard Bear”, or “Little Bear”, or “Little B”. So when it came to sort of choosing a name, actually my mother, well,she was granny. She was still granny to me. I didn’t want to be another granny. I didn’t want to be a grandma. So I chose the name Bear and they rather like it. So I think it’s a nice thing because a bear gives hugs, don’t they? 

[00:12:10] Paula: Oh, yes. That’s a good one. 

[00:12:14] Jane: You know, what are the nice qualities of bears? Well, they can be fierce, but generally they’re, you know, they’re large, furry, huggy things, aren’t they? 

[00:12:23] Paula: I saw a sign in one of my friend’s houses that said, “if I knew what I knew now as a grandmom, I would have been a grandmom first, before I was a mom”.

[00:12:32] Jane: I think so. 

[00:12:36] Paula: I know. She said, you figure it out. But I love being a grandma. That’s what she said to me.

[00:12:47] Tesse: You know, I’m loving this conversation and Jane, you know, I pick up and I read about your love, your passion, the practicality of harmonies in relationships, you know. And again, I’m curious about skill set and love set and mindset. You know, I’m curious about all that package of different you know, mindsets we have. Can you kind of share your own you know take on these love set and mindset and different sets? 

[00:13:16] Jane: Well, in a very simple way Tesse, I think we end up having a choice between love and fear. Are we going to react from fear? Now, actually, you know, sometimes we do react from fear. So for example, if my child or grandchild runs out into the road and I shout at them, I’m doing that from both love and fear, actually. I’m afraid they will get run over, but I’m doing it because I love them. But I think one of the things I feel very, very strongly at the moment in society is that we just live in a fear based society. Everything is about fear. Everything we read is about fear, everything we think is about fear, and so then we become defensive and adversarial. And it’s about a lot of the way we operate in society and particularly in the workplace is about, am I right? And therefore is somebody else wrong? And seeing things as black and white rather than shades of grey, you know, there must be one way to do things and the other way is the opposite. But actually, if you look at the world through the lens of love, and actually I have a sort of acronym for that, which is, you know, love means to listen, to observe. What am I observing about the other person? And what am I learning about them? When I’m in conversation or in relation with them. And then V, to verify, very often we have to verify what you know to feedback to someone. You know, what I think I’m learning from you or seeing from you, is this, am I right? So it’s what we might call in mediation skills, “checking”, but verifying that, you know, am I on the right track with where we’re at or where we’re going? And then the final thing is to empathize, but to really connect with the feeling that the other person has. So, you know, there is that meaning to, for me, you know, if you want to sort of say what might love mean in a more structured way, it’s that. But it is one of the core values that I try and apply in the work that I do, but it really means treating people with, humility and respect, and with courtesy and respect. And I think we easily forget that, especially in this era of social media, where it becomes okay to sort of say exactly what you think without anything to stop you really. You know, you’re hiding behind your title, whether it’s the title of mother or whether it’s the title of boss or hiding behind a social media doesn’t mean you’re entitled to say what you want to say without thinking about the impact of it. And we’re all guilty of that. You know I’m no saint. I don’t, it’s not that I never have harsh words with people, but it’s just understanding that we do that, we all end up in a spiral, like the wrong spiral. So in conflict, we talk about, it’s actually the interaction or the connection between people that has broken down, and it breaks down because we spiral into this way of seeing people as the enemy and we become very defensive about that. So you’re sort of in a bubble of self importance, if you like, and all you can see is your own narrative, your own sort of version of things, and you need to defend that. And what we need to do is we need to make small shifts to being able to be responsive to the other person. That’s all you need to do, is be able to respond to the other person, who they are, where they’re coming from, what their story is, but we don’t do that. And, you know, that’s the hardest thing. I certainly found that recently, you know, I think we’ve all got very strong narratives about things and it’s very easy to get drawn into that black or white thinking, again without thinking, but where does that other person come from? What is their story? Where are they trying to get to? What are the needs they’re trying to satisfy? That’s part of it. Most of us are trying to satisfy very simple needs, which are to live a peaceful life with our families, to go about our daily lives. And, you know, that’s what we’re trying to preserve, I think mostly most of us, not all of us, but most of us. Yeah we simply want to live in peace really. I think we do. 

[00:17:40] Tesse: I love what you’re saying, Jane. What comes to my mind is non violent communication, or compassionate communication, and also vulnerability and authenticity. You know, a woman called, she’s actually become quite famous these days, called Brené Brown. And she writes a lot on vulnerability, and she writes very much on authenticity. But she cleverly touches on shame and guilt. You know, that’s where she started from as a researcher. So, you know, I’d welcome your take on the vulnerability and the compassion. But also what I picked from your book, which is about tips or stepping stones at home and at work for doing communication better, better communication at home and at work.

[00:18:27] Jane: Yes, I mean, I think vulnerability, it’s something which is still alien to most of us, because and certainly if you’re of a certain age, you know there was, I suppose in my family again, if you go back to family. So my parents would have been in the war generation, generation of the Second World War, where you know you had to, I suppose, the phrase was have a stiff upper lip,.You just carry on, you don’t share your thoughts and feelings. You maybe never revisit what you went through. So my father, for example, although he was born in London, was evacuated to the countryside for several years. So again a different story to my mother’s, but to be put on a train with a little suitcase with a little label around your neck and to be sent off into the countryside to go, you know, away from your mother and to live with a family that you’ve never met is a huge trauma. And you know, who knows what impact that has. Now, my father Gaily told parts of that that he enjoyed. He enjoyed going to live on a farm. But you know nevertheless, even that initial parting from your mother who is saying goodbye to you and you’ve absolutely no idea where you’re going or why you’re going or when you’re going to see her again, that’s not a normal state of affairs for a small child. And so that has an impact. And I know many people who lived through, like my mother didn’t speak about her childhood. My father didn’t speak about his so much, you know, you don’t speak about those things, you just carry on. And the carrying on means that the trauma is buried. And I forget there’s a book, Tesse you probably know it “The Body Keeps the Score, isn’t it? “The body keeps the score”. So 

[00:20:17] Tesse: I know that. Yes. 

[00:20:19] Jane: No matter how much you bury the thought, the feeling, the memory, the body keeps the score. And it does, it comes out somewhere later on. My mother was actually quite ill later in her life. She had a neurological condition, multiple sclerosis. And she lived with that for quite some time. But you know, who knows what impact stress and trauma has on your body’s ability to fight something that is, you know, is attacking it. I don’t know. But “The Body Keeps the Score” is a book that does explore that phenomenon, if you like, of the impact that trauma has on our body and our ability to stay fit and healthy and well. 

[00:21:02] Tesse: I love what you’re saying. Totally love it. And there’s a lovely book that I read and I don’t read it all the time. I stop, I read and stop, and it’s called “My Grandmother’s Hands”. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful book of trauma, and it brings in the racial elements, but it is so, so beautiful. Grandmother’s Hands. One I’m reading at the moment, which is called, “It’s Not Always Depression”. And it touches on issues such as the body, you know, how the body actually can get ill and does get ill because of unresolved trauma that you’re speaking to. So you actually are touching on something very powerful. And the final one that I’ve seen the headlines just came out in September. was a book by a guy called “Thomas Hubl”, HUBL. And it talks about collective trauma and stuff like that. But what I love about these books is just the way that you’re explaining it, is that they’re things that are really happening to us, but helping us to be more aware of the impact those things do have. And not just be aware of it, committed to doing something so that we’re not traumatized and frozen in things that are not useful to our mind, to our spirits, and to our body. So it’s about the whole person. And people have testified that when they do this work, they are actually less ill. 

[00:22:23] Jane: Yes, yes. I think so. And my sense at the moment, Tesse, is that we do live in a time of terrific change and crisis and global conflict. But we also live at a tipping point of global trauma. And I do feel that this ancestral trauma, that this family trauma that’s been unhealed, that’s gone on for generations. And I read, I have an article to read, which is “Looking at the Impact of Family Trauma on Authoritarian Leadership”. Now, that would be interesting to explore deeply is, you know, authoritarian leadership we experience sometimes in families, sometimes in organizations, and sometimes in our, you know, in our national governments. But where does that really come from? And is that a model that actually is serving humanity? And if not, what are we going to do about it? Is the question. 

[00:23:18] Paula: Yeah. I mean, I have read about, you know, when studies being done on populations that suffered oppression and seeing that, you know, it’s in the DNA, it affects the genes. I mean, you know, that we are influenced by our environment, and of course, many of those things come out in stories or even the way we are parented. And if there’s been trauma, you know, generational trauma, it is going to impact us in one way or the other. And mentally, we are more aware now mental health is being discussed a lot more openly and people are, you know, being more handed about experiences. You’re seeing that there is connection between the physical and the emotional and the, you know, they impact each other in ways that go way beyond what we thought so many years ago. But there’s a story that I read on your blog about the “dancing goats” and this may seem.

[00:24:18] Jane: Yes, yes. 

[00:24:21] Paula: Tell me more about, I read it and it interested me, you know, about this person going after their goat and finding the goat’s chewing on a red bean, can you elaborate on that? I thought it was so funny. I love coffee, so. 

[00:24:37] Jane: Ah, yeah, well, this is a cafe that’s very near to where my daughter lives and it’s called “The Dancing Goat”. I was just, we were thinking of going there the other day, so I was looking on their website and there’s this story about the dancing goats. And it is just a lovely story about, you know, how the goats possibly, and it’s probably a myth, but discovered or knocked the can of beans into the ashes of the fire and there ended up with roasted coffee beans. It’s a lovely example of how sometimes something which is an accident or is a crisis can be turned into an opportunity. And I think that’s where we are right now. We can look at trauma and a conflict and a global conflict as an absolute disaster and a crisis, but we can also look at it as an opportunity. It is an opportunity for us to actually for once become conscious of where it comes from, why we’re where we are, and what we as individuals can do. Most of us are not going to become national politicians or leaders even of organizations. But I do believe, which goes back to this sort of sense of being a barefoot mediator, or as I say, a resolutionary rather than a revolutionary, is that understanding the roots of trauma in our own lives, even if it’s not extreme trauma, understanding that, how it impacts us and making a conscious effort to overcome that. And to put some of these skills, in fact, really simply to focus on putting love instead of fear at the heart of our lives and our responses and our relationships is the way forward. And that if we do that individually, we will create a different energy in the world, which will take us forward to a time of regeneration rather than one of, as we were just saying, you know, authoritarianism, which doesn’t allow the human spirit to flourish. And I love this idea that when we are looking at what we’re trying to create, it’s human flourishing.

[00:26:44] Paula: I love it. And how out of mistakes, God can come out of chaos. Yes, God can come. You know, coming back to that blog, I just could imagine and I could envision in my mind, that aroma of a coffee bean. Roasted coffee.

[00:27:00] Jane: Exactly. And if you hadn’t kicked the beans early, you would have never. 

[00:27:04] Paula: Never would have discovered that, right? Oh boy. I can’t believe that we’re 30 minutes into this show. And so, is there a parting gift that you can have for our guests, our listeners? 

[00:27:16] Jane: You know one thing, I do have a series of videos that your guests may sign on for, which are for managing in times of change, challenge, and crisis. Also though, I have got down with the hip hop rappers this last couple of years, and a friend of mine called George, who’s also known as Gory Gang, and Mr. Has, have adopted me and we have done a series called “Journey of a Lifetime”. It’s very much looking at telling the story of your journey, how that’s part of healing. So we’ve done two series of Journey of a Lifetime and we’re about to record the third one. But it’s a very important project that I’m involved in, as I say, with two young hip hop rappers. So I will give you a link to share, and yeah I think that will be fun. 

[00:28:08] Paula: I’m looking forward to that. I’m so looking forward that. And so to our precious listeners, as you can hear, all stories matter. Every one of them matter. So continue to share them with us. And we encourage those of you who have listened into the great, the wonderful, the exciting, the very interesting Jane Gunn to share your stories because we encourage them, we support you. And we through what you are doing, sharing your stories with us many lives are changed. And so we ask our listeners at the same time to head over to “Apple Podcasts”, “Google Podcasts”, “Spotify”, or anywhere you listen to podcasts and subscribe to our show. And if you have found what you just heard on “TesseLeads” with our guest Jane Gunn helpful, please let us know in your reviews. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, send us a note, please. And if you’d like to be a guest on this show, “TesseLeads, please head over to our website, “www.tesseleads.com” to apply. Jane, this has been phenomenal. 

[00:29:17] Tesse: Jane, you’re always down on building bridges, not walls. Lovely to hear from you.

[00:29:24] Jane: Thank you. I’ve enjoyed it very much. Thank you both. 

[00:29:27] Paula: Thank you.