Gifts in Pain
Ray Martin, author of Life without a Tie, also known as the Daily Explorer brought a “Ray” of Sunshine into the studio,. He’s an interpreter and an award-winning business leader, a coach, a mentor, a facilitator, a speaker ”
In life without a Tie a random unforeseen series of events helped Ray strengthen his inner guidance, deepen his humanity and forge a new authentic path. He shares the highs and lows, the tears and laughter and the pricniples which guided him.
Ray’s reminder is stark, “There are always gifts in pain”. The best gifts don’t come wrapped nicely. Sometimes the gifts reside in tough, chaotic and messy situations.
“I started to see the parts in me that were needing attention, patterns of behaviour that were destructive. I have invested time and energy to make change that those close to me have pointed out. These good friends have not colluded in keeping me the same. They know I am capable of better. By creating my guiding principles and staying connected to them I am able to be me better. Supported by the Hoffman process, I have been able to forgive my past, heal my present and take steps to transform my future. “
How can I do me better? Jim Dethmer is a coach, speaker, author and founding partner at the Conscious Leadership Group (CLG) he wrote a beautiful book called “The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership”. The book starts with a story of two successful leaders and what a good day looks like. One leader is conscious and the other is not. Conscious leadership offers the antidote to fear. Jim offers a comprehensive road map towards a shift from fear to trust based leadership. When he runs a workshop with executives, he draws a horizontal line on a piece of flip chart paper and he says, do you live above the line or below the line? Of course, everyone says, I don’t know, what’s the line?
“Be curious, they’re not curious, not dogmatically attached. Are you helpful, kind and generous? Do you have a good set of habits, building intentional relationships that are powerful, sustainable, supportive. Are you able to find your tribe? Your real friends will not collude with you to keep you the same. Instead, they will constructively challenge you and support you as you find your purpose and travel along your path. Such friends offer radical support and radical challenge.
TL – Ray Martin
[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host Tesse Akpeki, and co-host me Paula Okonneh. “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space to share, hear, and tell your stories and experiences. You’ll hear how our guests are creating opportunities navigating diverse challenges, confronting their dilemmas, and shaping their future. We have a fantastic guest today, his name is Ray Martin, and I’ll tell you something about Ray. Ray Martin is also known as the Daily Explorer. He’s an interpreter and an award-winning business leader. He’s also a coach, a mentor, a facilitator, a speaker. He’s a writer and a mindfulness teacher. He’s also considered to be a torch bearer for greater human consciousness. He’s created the calling “All Angels Foundation” and runs marathon to raise money for causes he believes in, which have included an orphanage in Nepal and an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. Whatever he does he says his mission is to bring more joy and happiness into the world. So today’s theme is “Life Without a Tie, Finding Your Path”. And we will be exploring how to do this amidst the noise, the chaos, and pressure to conform that we find ourselves in, in this busy world today. Welcome Ray to “TesseLeads”
[00:01:52] Ray: Thank you. What a lovely introduction. Beautiful
[00:01:56] Tesse: Ray, we are so delighted to have you on this show. I loved reading your book,” Life Without a Tie”, and what struck me was your life-changing relationships, how you’d shared the stories about that and the friendships you made all over the world. I loved your insights, your wisdom, the unpredictable and random events that took place through 28 countries. That struck me. And you know, I’m curious, as I think about what I was reading, what came to my mind was how you can guide people to live bravely, to make bold decisions, and how those things can be able to bring deep joy and happiness in people. I.E, what Jewels, can you share with us about how this works for others and where it’s coming from, from yourself?
[00:02:55] Ray: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That’s so much to say about that. That’s why it took a book to even put it down on paper. Let me see if I can pick out some things from what I’ve learned myself, which is, first of all, I think curiosity in any context is hugely underrated by most people. Most people just truck along with their life as it is, without being curious about what else is possible. Just even in their own thinking, let alone whether or not it can actually bring it about or make it happen. You know, what am I settling for? What else could I do? You know, what’s the gift I’m holding back here? Things like this, you know. Like I’ve always been curious and reflective on what I’ve done, and I would think nothing at all about coming to one of you if I worked with you and saying, do you know what? I’m really interested, is there anything you could see in me that I could improve? Or how am I showing up for you? Can I do anything better? Because I’m curious to know from any place I can get information, how can I be me better? I don’t see that in a lot of people. So I think, you know, for a start, just being curious about oneself, about the world, about others, and how many conversations do we have in our social lives or in our work lives where we’re just waiting for the other person to stop talking so we can say something about ourselves, you know? And so they might say, “oh, I had a really rough weekend”. And rather than say, “oh, really? What happened”? Most people might say, yeah, me too, I had a really rough weekend. But then it’s a competition who had the worst weekend, you know? And it’s like there’s no real learning. And that’s why I think curiosity is something I advocate for whenever I can. It’s a massively underrated tool. And there’s a guy called Jim Dethmer, an author, he wrote a book called “The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leaders”. I don’t know if you’ve come across it, it’s a beautiful book. And he’s got a really simple model when he runs a workshop with executives. He draws a horizontal line on a piece of flip chart paper and he says, do you live above the line or below the line? Of course, everyone says, I don’t know, what’s the line? You know. They say, well, when you’re living below the line, you are committed to being closed, defensive, and being right. And when you’re living above the line, you’re committed to be an open, curious, and wanting to learn. Where do you spend most of your time? So most people say, oh God, about 80% below the line, I’m afraid, or maybe even more. And so that’s a great start point, and I think that’s a really, that’s something to think about. I mean, it’s just the first thing. And then once you become curious, how do you articulate what your needs are and where you’re trying to get to, and who do you have around you to support you to do that better? Have you got someone? Could you find someone? Is there someone you know, even a friend who could help you do that better? And of course, what are the steps you take? And I talked about having supportive relationships in my book as one of the rules for happiness, build empowering, supportive, and sustainable relationships. That’s a condition for happiness. Because I think our friends should be people that say, Tesse, come on you’re not living your purpose here. This is not in alignment with who you really are. I think it’s more is possible from you. It’s something I think as a true friend would say to you. But in our friendships, we tend to collude to keep each other the same, and we certainly do that at work as well, I’ve seen that a lot. But I only remember through my career, I just remember the people that pushed me really hard in a good way and said, you are capable of so much more than you are doing at the moment. I can see it in you. You are way more capable than you think, you are underselling yourself. You know I think we want friends in our lives to give us that kind of radical support and radical challenge sometimes. Carry on. I mean, how hard, how much you want me to say about this.
[00:06:58] Tesse: Paula, I, you know, I look into Paula’s eyes and I see her curious, and you said invite curiosity. So Paula invite your curiosity about what Ray shared so far.
[00:07:12] Paula: I’m curious as to how many people are actually brave enough to be vulnerable. I think vulnerability has become a word that we’ve heard more often now because, I like to give kudos to the millennials. The millennials have made things a lot more acceptable. I talked more about mental health and wellness. We didn’t, and we were like, get over it. And so you know it when you talked about, you know, curiosity and having friends that push you and encourage you. I love that. But I was just really curious about how many people are open and vulnerable to say yes, I actually do live below the line. Cause people like to build themselves up, you know?
[00:07:55] Ray: I think that’s what leadership is. You see, I think a lot of people think being a leader is a position or a role in a job. But to me, being a leader is a state of mind. In other words, I’ve seen people in a non-business situation, like at an airport when there’s a flight canceled and there’s a hundred people milling around the desk or wanting something to happen. Well, eventually one person steps forward and starts being the spokesperson for that group and demanding something change, you know, from their company. And they assume a leadership role in that moment. They’re just being a leader. They’re going first, they’re not waiting for someone else. And to me, that’s what being a leader is. You start doing it yourself. You have to go first. So if you start in your own friendships, being radically supportive and radically challenging your friends, you’ll eventually get people doing that for you. But you don’t wait for someone to do it, you choose it as a way of showing up. You know, this is for me what being a leader is, it’s about going first. I think that’s always how I’ve thought of it. And I had that role when I became a CEO of my own business. I’d never been a CEO before. I’d never owned a business before or run a company. Never started one. So I had to learn really fast, you know. I thought, God, I can’t wait to be taught this by somebody. I’m just going to have to do what I think’s right, and go first and do it this way. And I remember people ask me, when would you know how you know the company’s a success? I’ll say, well, because I’ll be proud of it, and people will speak about it in those terms. Yeah, it’ll be financially viable, but it’ll be a feeling that I’m really proud of how the people here come to work. And that’s really what, where my target was. So as I think these things are important, I don’t know if I answered the question, let me just check that I have.
[00:09:40] Paula: You did. Because I’m curious as to, you know, as you said, you were the CEO of your own company, you had no rules to go by. So how did you go about like writing those rules, encouraging. We talked earlier on for those who have listened to other podcasts, we talked about empowering our employees, whoever works with us, you know. So how did you go about writing those rules? Rules of encouragement for work.
[00:10:06] Ray: Yeah, it’s good. I mean mine’s a mashup of everything I’ve ever learned, you know. Because you know there’s only a certain amount of wisdom in the world and everyone can speak about it in different terms, but we all essentially come back to the same place always. The fundamentals are pretty clear. Now when I watch people who have been really successful in business or in any walk of life as an athlete or anything, they model a certain kind of behavior and belief system, and I’ll run through it. Having core strength was the first one. Taking full ownership for everything that happens. They never ever let blaming someone else or conditions or circumstances stop them. If those things aren’t working how they want them to, they find a way around it. They just don’t waste any time on blaming someone else. The third one I would say, is having what I call a conscious mind. Because if you’re not aware that you think thoughts and you can step back and see yourself thinking those thoughts, if there’s no separation, then you are fully enmeshed in what you’re thinking, you become the thought. So if you are angry, you become fully angry. If you are sad, you become fully sad. But anyone who’s got any success in life is able to step back from that and go, I notice at this moment I am having feelings of sadness. How do I want to deal with that? They are separate to the thought in the way they speak about it to themselves, in the way they act themselves. And they might even say, I notice I’m thinking thoughts of revenge and getting my own back with this person, and I’m aware that that isn’t probably the best way to go. What else could I do here? Whereas someone has just got the desire for revenge and they’re fully identified with that, it’s just going to be lashing out and kicking out of that person. There’s no space, they’re reacting. They’re basically an automatic pilot and we are not always aware when we are on auto pilot. So we’ve got to build that muscle of, I call it being the observer, conscious mind being the observer. And then the next thing that all successful people have, is they have habits and routines that they repeatedly do. So let me give you a couple of examples. You know, one would be what’s your relationship with failure? I encourage anyone I coach to fail forward and fail fast. Fail as many times as you can because you’ll learn more. Don’t be embarrassed about it or have any shame about it. Treat failure and success as the same. They’re just learning. They’re just like data gathering. You get some data from succeeding, you get some data from failing, all of it makes you a better person. So that’s one habit. Another habit would be look at the raw facts, how often do I just do that? Or do I get caught up in the drama of the event? Another one might be, hold your opinions lightly. How many business meetings have you been in when you just see people are not willing to let go of the opinion they’re holding? They’ll die for that opinion. They’ll literally walk out the organization rather than just change their thinking or let it go, or just be a bit less attached to it. Be curious, they’re not curious, they’re dogmatically attached and there’s others. So there’s having a good set of habits. Building intentional relationships is another habit I encourage. In my book, I call it building powerful, sustainable, supportive relationships. But you’ve got to build your relationships for the long term. I can give you really good example of that. When I was running first place as a CEO. I had one person, a young person in their twenties on my team, was brilliant, really genius person, but young and not much experience. But she was gaining experience working at first place for five or six years, the amazing contributor. And when I saw that the company was going to come to an end because of the events that happened, I discreetly went to a rival company and said, I’ve got this fantastic person on my team. No one publicly knows this yet, she does, but our company’s got to cease functioning at a certain point because of a certain personal events that happened. I’d really like to find her a great company, she can continue her path. And I had no reason for doing that because I wasn’t getting any financial reward and didn’t ask. What was driving was a sense of, I just wanted to do the right thing for her and have her be safe. Because that was living my value of integrity and honoring that value in myself and my value of love and integrity, and that was my motivation. So she eventually got a job offer from that company and she went to join them, and they loved her. She loved it being there. It worked brilliantly, really worked out brilliantly. What about four years after that and I’d gone off to Asia now, I was like four or five years into my 14 year journey. I was off in Asia, lost contact with her. But eventually I met a woman in Poland who I fell in love with and I moved to Poland and I was much closer to London. So I reached out to this woman and just called her socially and said, how are you doing? You know, this is about 15 years after all this had happened. She had two kids, got married. She was in her forties now, much older, wiser person. A different version of herself, yeah, but brilliant still. She said, oh yeah, that was great. I had some brilliant years at that company I took the job in. But it got sold by a much bigger company, and now me and the founder we’re going to launch a new business and it’s called, she told me the name of it and she said, we’re going to be teaching emerging leaders about leadership principles and we’re going to build a team of coaches. And I said, you know what? I said, that would be my dream work based on the journey I’ve been on, there’s nothing more I’d like to do than to coach those people. Can I be on the team? She said, yep, you’ve got a place just like that. And that was 13 years later. Just magic. I mean literally, I came back to Europe and I thought, where am I going to find a team to work with? Where’s my tribe? And one call to her and I was in the tribe. And that’s because I have that relationship and I’ve got other examples I could throw in here, similar. I’ve never struggled to find people to help.
[00:15:58] Tesse: So powerful reciprocity. Yeah, kind of.
[00:16:01] Ray: And that’s Patrick Lens. Who’s the reciprocity principles from, is it Daniel de Martini? I can’t remember if John Martini.
[00:16:09] Tesse: I know that it’s highlighted very strongly by appreciative inquiry.
[00:16:13] Ray: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
[00:16:14] Tesse: And reciprocity and mutuality. But I’m sure it comes across in different kinds of ways. As you say that, Ray, I remember my late brother, Tony. He was one of my guides and he was one of my teachers, and he used to say, “to build the bridge that you don’t know whether you’re going to cross, you just build it”.
[00:16:35] Ray: Yeah. I believe if you are just being helpful, kind and generous to whoever you can do that with, as long as you genuinely mean it, rather than you’re pretending to do it as a technique. If you’re genuinely like that, you’re always going to be okay. Even if it doesn’t come back from the same person, it’s coming some other way. You’re always going to be okay, because you’re putting that energy out into the world and it’s going to vibrate with people on that frequency. And people on that frequency will find you and know that you are a person they want to help.
[00:17:06] Tesse: Absolutely. And it mirrors back to you, your heart, your heart to do that, like your heart, to make sure that woman was safe. And little did you know that that bridge was something else. And the values piece that you’ve been talking to Paula and I about, it comes alive in the integrity, the selflessness by making sure somebody else is okay.
[00:17:30] Ray: I think so. And I just want to qualify, I’m not saying this from a sort of textbook or a theoretical perspective. I’m saying this because I’m 62 and I’ve put this into practice for now. I went to work at 16 so I’ve got 45 years of practicing this. And I know directly from my own experience this is working, and I can give you a thousand examples. Like even when I wrote the book, I thought I want 15 or 16 people to review this book early before it goes into the world and tell me honestly, radically honestly what needs to be changed. And you know, I had a queue of people wanting to help me with that. I had to narrow it down to 15. I had loads of people who wanted to do that for me.
[00:18:14] Tesse: A queue people, is that not a demonstration of how people see you. I mean, when I read your book, one of the things I was very intrigued about were your relationship the romantic relationships that failed. And I thought, I’m going to ask Ray about one or two in particular that you know I could feel the pain coming out. You know, like, woo, you know, and the question I have here is really about when relationships, particularly the romantic ones, don’t work. When there is a breakdown of those and there’s an exit and whoever does it exiting, but that’s what things crumble and the pain is there. Sharing your learning when you talk about life without a tie in those situations, what would you say?
[00:19:03] Ray: Well, there’s a couple of things I wrote in the book that are worth, I think flagging. One is we meet people throughout life, we never know exactly why we’ve met them until much later usually. But I would say you could put every person into one of three camps, which is you meet people for a reason, a season, or a lifetime. But it’s not important to know at the moment you need them, which it is because it’ll all be revealed later. So for example, I had a really difficult and challenging short relationship with a woman I met in Shanghai called Dancy in the book. And you’ll remember her because she was the first person I’d ever encountered in my life who had a narcissistic personality, and it was incredibly distressing for me. I was in tears every day. I didn’t understand what was going on with her and why she was treating me in a certain way. It all made sense much later when I read about narcissism and that kind of thing. It all fell into place, but at the time it was very distressing. Yet at the same time, she was the person that showed me how to structure all the chapters for my book, and it was through a half a day working session with her. It was the first time I ever saw what my book was going to look like as a structure. I couldn’t write anything before I met her because I had all the thoughts jumbled up in my head, but I couldn’t organize them in my own head. What she did, she showed me how to organize it on paper and into different chapters through facilitating me, and I ended up with a blueprint, literally like an architect’s blueprint for the book. So there was a reason that I met her
[00:20:55] Ray: But there was one reason I met her and it was to get that, because after I left that encounter, I was able to make a really good start on the book and start writing. And I knew how to write and what to write. I knew how to set it out. So that’s an example. Now a season, reason season, lifetime, a season would be someone like Annie. I met Annie in London just before I went on the journey, and she invited me to join her and travel to Thailand, and I thought, fantastic, why not? And I didn’t know whether Annie and I would be together for life or a week or anything. But turned out we were together for a year and a half when we left, and then came back together again for another year. And so that was a relationship with my life for a season, because it was through that encounter with her that I started to see the parts in me that were needing attention, patterns of behavior that were destructive. She really helped me see what I could do to improve my life as a man in the world. But I didn’t make the changes speedily enough to save that relationship with her. So she showed me what I needed to do through the relationship itself. Then I invested time and energy to make those changes. But by then it was too late for her, she had to go. So that was a season, that relationship was for a season like two years, two intense and lovely years. I’m a much better version of me because I had that time with her than I would’ve been, I think. And a lifetime relationship is my relationship with Charlotte, because we’re not married. We’re not husband and wife, but we’ll be friends forever. You know, we’ve just got a very deep and very powerful connection in our lives. So similar values, similar ways of looking at things. You asked me about relationships, so that’s one perspective I hold for all relationships. So if it’s not working out how I think it should, I’m not too bothered. That’s one thing. And then a second for romantic relationships, I think I love this metaphor. You’ve got one sheet of A4 paper and another sheet of A4 paper, and you put glue on the fronts of both. And when you start a relationship, it’s like you put these two sheets of paper stuck together like this, and then if you want to separate, they never come apart exactly how they were before they were glued together. There’s always tearing and you know, it’s just the way it is. That’s just how life is. But I believe there’s some value in that pain because for both people, usually it highlights, it shows us where we are not on our path, or we’re not living our values, or we’re out of alignment. And it shows us where we can see ways we can make changes to our own belief system that’s going to help us in the next version make it work better.
[00:23:44] Ray: Wow.
[00:23:45] Ray: You know, there’s always gifts in the pain always. Perhaps some people will argue sometimes those most painful encounters are the ones with the most learning, and there’s some truth in that. I think it certainly is for me, and I’ve highlighted in each of the encounters I had in the journey that I was in, I’ve highlighted what I learned. You know, there was one relationship with a woman called Sylvia, where I forgot about my guiding principles. I felt I was wronged by her, and I made at the time an unconscious choice. I made a choice to get some revenge and get my own back on her, and it didn’t work for me very well. And then afterwards I realized I lost my guiding principle connection and I’d acted out of a kind of small part of myself and seen the consequences of that. But that helped me sort of commit again to being the best, most principled version of myself that I could be. Because I saw the damage I’d caused by not being that version.
[00:24:43] Tesse: Paula what are your reflections? Because I’m saying I wish I’d read Ray’s book before it was written. But what are your thoughts?
[00:24:53] Paula: I love those categories. I love people coming to your life for a reason. I love it. The reason, the season, the lifetime, and then that analogy with the romantic category, two A4 papers stuck together, once you pull them apart, you have parts of the other person in you that infects you positively and negatively, and the other person, again, has the same. I love all of that. I mean, it was so vivid in my mind. And of course, this being the podcast in which we focus on the personal side of our guests, I’m curious as to what are your hopes and your dreams for your future?
[00:25:37] Ray: Yeah, well, of course there’s several strands to the answers to that question. I wrote this chapter in the book. I did a program called The Hoffman Process, and we had to literally articulate our vision for ourselves in four areas. Home ,work, how I show up as a man in the world and relationships. So I’ve got a picture of like, what do I want my home to be? And I actually, it’s really weird because even though I did that process, what was it, 13 years ago, this week I just committed to buying a home in the UK. So in the weekend I found a house and I’m going to start building my own home. For the first time in 20 years, I’m going to have a tie of a home and I’m really thrilled about that. So I’ve gone from life without a tie with any ties to now going to have a tie again, and I’m very, very happy to be building a home. So that part was missing for me. In the area of work, I’ve made a decision, which is I’m not going to interfere with that. In other words, not going to use my rational mind to determine where I think it should go. I’m going to just observe and listen and feel the universe and based on what people will come to me and ask me for, I will serve them in the way they wish to be served. You know, so that could go any direction as long as it’s meeting the needs that people have of me, and I’m serving them in the way they wish to be served. It could be workshops, it could be seminars, it could be talks, it could be another book. But I’m going to be guided so that I am in service to what’s needed, rather than me determining what I want to do and then pushing it out like that way. I used to do that, and I don’t want to live that way anymore. So that’s an area of relationship. I’m obviously dreaming of meeting a partner, a love partner who I could see out my life with. That would be my ideal scenario. I’m not in that situation. Available.
[00:27:30] Paula: That ties in with one other category, area of a man.
[00:27:37] Ray: Then there’s a man in the world. You know, I realized that I’ve spoken to a lot of men since I wrote this book who’ve sort of confided in the similar thoughts to the ones I had, and certainly their marriages are not ideal and things like this. So maybe I’ve got some role that I can play for men, fellow men, to help be in service to them and especially the men that go through these transitions that we go through when people divorce and their family life changes and the impact that has on everything. Cause I’ve lived through that now, so I kind of feel like I’ve got something useful to bring to that. And I don’t know, I’m still exploring it, because early days the book’s only just come out and I’ve had chats with three or four men like that and I’m just working out what they need. It’s a bit uncertainty even for me, but one of the things that’s different for me in this era is that I am so okay with the uncertainty and not knowing. Whereas as a businessman in London years ago, I had to be certain about everything. I had to control reality by being certain, and I don’t have that need anymore. So I don’t mind not knowing as much.
[00:28:41] Paula: That’s absolutely brilliant. It also means looking at you, there’s going to be another book to follow this one.
[00:28:48] Ray: I’ve got an idea in my mind, a clear idea for a second book that I want to write. Yeah. But it’s honestly, it’s such a big effort writing a book. It’s a nightmare on one level. It’s like it takes every night and every weekend. It’s such a big job. It took me six years to write this book. Oh, I’m not sure I’m ready for another commitment like that. But the second book is a bit, going to be quite a bit shorter than this one.
[00:29:15] Paula: That’s amazing. I mean, you know, I say you’ve achieved what you need to achieve for now.
[00:29:20] Ray: Yeah, for now.
[00:29:21] Paula: And as we read your book, we would know and that would encourage you to know what the next steps are. I mean, just listening to you break this down, homework relationships and, you know, showing up in the world as a man, I can see four books coming out of this.
[00:29:37] Tesse: I can see the same. I mean, for me, when I read the book, to be quite honest I thought you know, I would have liked to read more about your experience and your journey coming back to the UK and you met the pandemic, Covid.
[00:29:51] Ray: Yeah. Oh my God. That was horrendous.
[00:29:52] Tesse: Yeah. And that’s a piece I thought, oh, the book has come yet to that you know, it just a thought. The Post pandemic.
[00:29:59] Ray: That was the last page of the book, wasn’t it?
[00:30:01] Tesse: That was the last picture of the book. And I’m saying another chapter would’ve, you know, but, you know, I’m going to hand over it to Paula because, you know, you can see I’m intrigued everything you’ve said resonates with me. And that last bit that you said about emergence and being in that emergence with divergence, for me that’s a really rich journey and it takes a lot of trust.
[00:30:25] Ray: Can you imagine what it would be like if our political leaders were like that? I’m here to serve you the community, you tell us what you need and we’ll do that for you.
[00:30:34] Paula: That’s called Utopia.
[00:30:35] Ray: I mean, that would, wouldn’t that be an amazing world to be living in if political leaders were truly in service to the community that has elected them?
[00:30:44] Tesse: Amen. I hope this is,
[00:30:45] Ray: I mean we’re just so, we’re just such a million miles away from that. I don’t see that ever changing, by the way, cause.
[00:30:51] Paula: I know.
[00:30:51] Tesse: I hope it does. I hope it does. I mean, I think that Jacinda Erden and you know, and other, they showed the possibility of what that humble kind of leadership in service of others, empathetic leadership and compassionate accountability can look like. And so I’m kind of hopeful.
[00:31:09] Ray: Yeah, I mean, it’s one of the reasons I do what I do in the leadership space, because I think the only way I could be valuable as part of the wave of change would just be to help individuals learn the skills of principled leadership. And hopefully they’ll be a next generation of leaders that won’t be corrupted by the usual crap that these leaders sort of get sucked into. But I don’t know, I’ve got to do something with my life that’s valuable. So that’s what I’ve chosen, so that’s the best thing I can think of.
[00:31:38] Tesse: Keep doing what you’re doing, Ray. It’s great, it’s great. Paula, you know.
[00:31:44] Paula: This has been incredibly enlightening. Thank you so much Ray, for being a guest on “TesseLeads”. And then to our precious, precious listeners, we thank you for listening in. We want you to know that your stories, just like Rays and your life matters to us, so we encourage you to share them with us. We also encourage you to head over to “Apple Podcast”, “Google Podcast”, “Spotify” or anywhere else you listen to podcasts and please click subscribe. And if you find that “TesseLeads” has been helpful, we’d love you to write us a review or send us a note. And of course, if you’d like to be a guest on our show, please head over to our new website, “TesseLeads” and apply. Thank you so much again.
[00:32:32] Ray: My pleasure.
[00:32:33] Tesse: Ray, you brought a “Ray” of Sunshine into the studio, so thanks for being on our show.
[00:32:38] Ray: Fabulous.
[00:32:39] Paula: This has been fabulous.
My Story, My Treasures and My Gifts
Jane Duncan Rogers shares with us her story of grief and how it’s become her treasures and gifts to others.“My husband was diagnosed with stomach cancer in 2010. It stops you in your tracks. He got treatment, we hoped for the best, but actually the worst happened and I ended up being a widow.” This was the beginning of Jane’s grief journey.
Jane’s greatest fear had come true. She was on her own at age 54. How could she be gifted by this terrible loss? Louise L Hay, author of “You Can Heal Your Life” comforting words “what you feel you can heal” helped Jane get through pretty difficult feelings. A willingness to face grief and to face one’s own mortality can be helpful.
Having an open heart and not letting fear stop you from doing what you want to do can help navigate loss. This often requires vulnerability, openness and being joyful in the face of sadness. Philip, Jane’s first husband used to say, “In vulnerability lies your strength.”
Front door, back door thinking aided Jane as she dealt with the emotions that were coming her way, “I learned to open the front door of my house, so to speak, and open the windows and let it in, and open the back door as well so that the feeling could come in, inhabit the house for a little bit or however long it was, and then easily go out through the back door and the back windows. Because that is what happens with feelings. They come and they go always, all the good ones that we wish would stay and all the bad ones that we don’t want to have at all” recalls Jane. Journaling, stomping and shouting helped.
Jane recounts ” Plenty of times when I was awake in the middle of the night Googling, ‘ how long does grief last?’ I never got an answer”.
Jane concludes, “the more that one can be accepting of what is happening, that’s impossible to start with, the more it becomes part of the grieving process. “
[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host, Tesse Akpeki, and co-host me Paula Okonneh. Tesse Leads is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space where guests share how they are navigating a diverse range of challenges, and also how they confront their dilemmas and shape their futures. Our guest today is Jane Duncan Rogers, and the theme for today is ” My story, my treasures and my gifts “. So I’ll tell you about our wonderful guest, Jane. Jane was devastated when her husband died. This was not their plans. Her greatest fear had come true, and she was on her own again at age 54, very young. However, little did she know that three years on, she would’ve published a book called “Gifted by Grief”. How could she be gifted by this terrible loss? And yet she was. And that has led her directly to what she now does. Her background of 25 years in the coaching and training field has been perfect for the now six figure business she founded in 2016. And together with her worldwide team of end of life planning facilitators, she offers products and programs to help people complete their end of life plans, which 90% of people say is essential, but only 14% actually get around to doing. So welcome, Jane to “TesseLeads”. This is a topic that everyone needs to hear.
[00:01:54] Jane: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Wonderful to be here.
[00:01:59] Tesse: Hi, Jane. It’s really lovely to meet you, and I’m a great admirer of the work you do. As Paula saying death and dying really difficult sensitive topics for people. And I know that lots of people, including myself are sometimes avoiding discussing these things. I’m rather curious about your journey, how you came to seeing this work as something that was important to do. What was your journey like along the way?
[00:02:31] Jane: Well, my husband was diagnosed with stomach cancer, this was in 2010. And you know when something like that happens and it’s a life-threatening situation, you’re stopped in your tracks. So we did what people do, which is he got treatment, we hoped for the best, but actually the worst happened. So I ended up being a widow. Oh God, I hated that word. I found that really difficult. I didn’t want to be called that. But that was the label that society was putting on me. And I knew that I would always write about it. Because I had been a writer, I had been a blogger. And sure enough, that’s how “Gifted by Grief” came about. It just poured out of me one day. Literally, I woke up one morning and I thought, oh my God, this is the time to write, and it was reader’s responses to that book, which I did feel gifted by the grief by this point. But they responded to something else in the book, which was a different kind of gift, and that was about the questions that I had asked my husband before he died. And the very practical ones about what kind of coffin do you want? What are your passwords? How do you want your body dressed? Really practical things. And lots of people said to me, oh my goodness, I need to answer those questions too. And really that was the birth of what I do now running before I go solutions. So that was definitely not in the plan. I can tell you.
[00:03:58] Tesse: Paula, I see you pensive.
[00:04:04] Paula: Because I’m also a widow, and so I can relate to what you’re saying. You know, your whole life changes. And the first day I had to fill in on a form widow, I cried because I was like, I’ve never had to write that. I’ve always written, married, still a mother, but widow. And you know, I was going in to see an orthodontist and I went by myself. Now I think that was foolish, but I went by myself and I went in there and they were like, your blood pressure’s very high. And I realized why it was very high, and then they’re like, we can’t do anything for you today. So I just went and sat in my car and started thinking, okay, I can’t make my children orphans, so I need to figure out how to get this down. Yeah, immediately or as quickly as possible.
[00:04:55] Jane: Yeah. It’s really interesting that I can remember, because I didn’t think of myself as a widow until I had to fill out that forum, like you just said. And I also cried on the very first time I had to do it, because I didn’t want to be a widow. Who wants that? You know? But anyway, we had not had children, so I didn’t have that reason, you know, to have to continue. But there were plenty of times when I, I Wouldn’t say that I felt like doing away with myself, but I certainly didn’t want to be living. The grief was so strong, and even though you know my background as a counselor, I had learned about grief. Theoretically, I had worked with people who were grieving, but my goodness, me, after Philip died, I was completely blindsided by the extent of the emotion. It was so strong, and I, the only thing I knew was that I had to allow the feelings to be there. I thought I was going a bit mad actually, but I have since learned that that is not an uncommon way to be thinking. But I don’t know if you have heard of Louise Hay, Louise El Hay. Author of “You Can Heal Your Life”. But I trained with her way back in 1990 and she said something that stuck with me in that time, and it was “what you feel you can heal, what you feel you can heal”. So I really hung onto that to get me through some pretty difficult feelings.
[00:06:22] Paula: Yeah, I can even see now that you’re still emotional and you think about it because yeah, that feeling never goes away. And as you said, what you feel you can heal leads me to my question is that what gives you that deep conviction that your work is something that is really, or can really make a difference?
[00:06:41] Jane: Well, I’ve always done work and I really care about making a difference. It doesn’t really matter in a way what way I do that. But I would say my bigger purpose in life for many, many years now has been to make a difference in a positive way to one person or many, or whoever it is. At the moment this is the way it is showing up. And because I have had my own experience with my husband, but also with my parents who have now died and other people as well. I know the difference between when somebody has faced the elephant in the room of their own death or their parents’ death, or somebody else in the family and have been willing to prepare for that. Because when you don’t prepare for it afterwards, there’s potentially and often is a terrible mess left behind from an administrative point of view and trying to make decisions and everybody in the family may be wanting to know what to do, but nobody has been left any instructions. So the potential for arguments is enormous, even in families that say that they would never do that sort of thing. So I know what people need to do in order to avoid that. So whenever there’s anybody who takes up that mantle, if you like to think about it and be willing to face grief to face the fact of their own mortality, then I know it’s going to make a difference. They don’t know that until a bit further on down the line, but they do get there.
[00:08:12] Paula: Absolutely, Tesse.
[00:08:15] Tesse: I’m listening very deeply to Jane to what you’re saying. And you know, I’m sensing you’re a compassionate person, care and you like people and you say you have counseling expertise as well. Are there other things in your life’s journey, you know, that have contributed to where you are now and are you prepared to share them with us?
[00:08:39] Jane: Sure.
[00:08:39] Tesse: I was curious. Yeah.
[00:08:41] Jane: Well, yeah, I only just realized the other day that, you know, I was 54 when Philip died. And whenever I’m telling my story, maybe on a podcast or whatever, I quite often will say, it sounds as if the story starts when he died. But of course there was 54 years before that. And I would say that I’ve always been a spiritual seeker since a teenager when I had what I might call an awakening experience one day in nature. It was a glimpse of another way of being. A glimpse, some might say, a glimpse of God, some might say a glimpse of love of the essence of life. It doesn’t really matter what the word is. But it was just a glimpse. And so then I started out seeking, but one of the benefits of this seeking journey is that I was doing a lot of personal growth work and understanding myself, lots of stuff about communication and allowing my heart to open more and more, and that’s been quite a journey. When I was married, I was married for 20 years and we had a good marriage. It was quite a tempestuous marriage, let’s say that, but it was a good marriage. And yet afterwards I felt on reflecting that my heart had been broken open in a different way with the grief, and I realized that I had not been fully able to have such an open heart in my marriage. And I promised myself that if I ever got the chance again with another man, that I would do what I needed to do to keep my heart open. And I’m really incredibly lucky to be able to say that I have found another man and I have married again just two years ago. And I have had to practice keeping my heart open. Because we would, in the early days, we would describe me as being spiky, you know, like putting little spikes out to keep him away, cause I was. I was afraid, you know, of getting involved again cause he might die too. But I haven’t let that get in the way. I’ve been quite good at not letting fear stop me doing what I want to do in all areas of my life, so.
[00:10:49] Tesse: That sounds beautiful, elegant, very gentle as well. Curious and discovering type tones coming to my mind. And you know my curiosity leads me to ask this question, which is what does an open heart look like? Or what does it feel like, you know, for you from your perspective?
[00:11:11] Jane: Well, nags, I’ve practiced it a lot, I can tell I think a lot in images. So if I’m aware of an image of, and it’s usually a set of gates across my heart, literally inside here, sometimes there’s no gates there at all, that’s when I’m fully open. Then I’m usually vulnerable, but not necessarily vulnerable in a painful way. It could be vulnerable in a very open and joyous way. And then there’ll be other times when the gates are there and they are open, and there are other times when the gates are there and they’re closed, and sometimes they’re even locked. But if I notice that they’re locked, I know what to do to unlock them and to open them up again. Because it doesn’t work closing down your heart, it doesn’t work locking it away, it really doesn’t work. Because you separate yourself from not just other people and the love that other people want to give you, but you separate yourself from being love itself, which is one of my beliefs that we are manifestations of love. So yeah, I don’t usually talk about all this on podcasts. I don.t know what it is you’re saying to get it out of me.
[00:12:20] Tesse: This is what we love doing. We actually love Paula and I, we love creating spaces for people to have their voices amplified and explore things safely. And you can see our viewers are listening, so they can’t see us. But I can see you, Jane, and I can see Paula, and I see that kindness coming out from you. And actually you’re speaking into things that Paula and I care about, you know about caring about people in our lives while they’re alive, you know. And singing the song that we want to sing when they’re there to hear it. We care about that. Paula, your thoughts?
[00:13:00] Paula: I absolutely agree with you, especially when you mentioned Tesse, that this is a safe place. Because we’ve had many of our guests say, oh my gosh, I don’t know what happens when we come here. But at the end of the day, this is a space also to help people. And so, you know, I know our generation, Tesse and my generation, we weren’t openly vulnerable. We could be vulnerable in private, but being openly vulnerable was something that we were taught from a young age that you don’t do. But I’ve seen the difference that makes in so many other people’s lives, because many times they feel alone that this is only happening to me. When one has an opportunity to say, and me too, this is also happening to me. It’s amazing the trickle down effect that it has, and that in turn helps so many others and helps the world and helps you know. Now we talk so much more about mental illness and we realize it’s all part, it’s holistic, you know, spiritual body. It’s not just physical. But we also have emotions and emotions and our minds and, you know, we need healing there. Being vulnerable opens up a wide, wide, wide range of healing practices, I believe for people to know we are not alone. We are all the same, really struggling with similar things, but sometimes at different stages of different times, different seasons. So thank you. Thank you.
[00:14:26] Jane: It’s a pleasure. I like it. My first husband, he had a saying which was, in your vulnerability lies your strength. And I’ve always remembered that, cause it’s like, oh yeah, that’s right. You know, because we have in our culture have this idea that vulnerability is something that is, you know, you shouldn’t do it. But it’s not true, it really is not true. And so I’m happy to be out there. That’s how I am in my book, “Gifted by Grief”, the first book, because I couldn’t do it any other way, and I wouldn’t have wanted to do it any other way, you know?
[00:15:00] Tesse: You come across as authentic, you know, and, you know, personable, likable, connected, as I said, with the broader world. And you know, when, you know, just seeing you, you know, I can see us having a cup of coffee and a croissant, you know, and just sharing and joining Paula, you know, not remotely getting her to come and join us over as well. But you know, there’s a question that comes to my mind, Jane, and that’s about success. You know, given what you have been through your journey in life where you are now, what would you describe success as? What was, what’s it mean for you?
[00:15:35] Jane: Yeah, that’s really interesting one, isn’t it? Because I definitely used to equate success with having lots of money in the bank, and that’s what I thought it meant. But I have learned along the way that looking at the outer things on our outer level, which traditionally society says is the marks of success, like money and cars and holidays and all that kind of stuff. That’s all nice if you like that kind of thing. But that’s not the hallmark of success. I think the hallmark of success for me now would be being able to wake up in the morning and feel grateful that I’m here and that I’m alive and that I have my health, and to go to bed feeling like that as well. And to be able to have learned enough about connecting and communicating with people that we are not playing games with each other. There’s no room for game playing. So we are authentic and vulnerable and open and joyous and having a good time. And when emotions like anger, or grief, or fear or sadness come, they’re all welcome as well. So in my book, I wrote about what I call front door, back door thinking, and this was how I dealt with the emotions that were coming my way cause there were so many of them. And I couldn’t understand it, because it was even one day, about 10 days after Philip had died, I was walking in the woods, it was a winter’s day, but it was blue sky and sunshine and I heard the birds chirping. I was on my own, but I felt happy and I couldn’t understand how I could feel happy when I was going home to an empty house, but that was just one part of me. The essence of me was feeling joyous and happy, which was wonderful. So to come back to the front door, back door thinking, I learned to, whenever a feeling came, whatever it was, it didn’t matter whether I liked it or not. I learned to open the front door of my house, so to speak, and open the windows and let it in, and open the back door as well so that the feeling could come in, inhabit the house for a little bit or however long it was, and then easily go out through the back door and the back windows. Because that is what happens with feelings. They come and they go always, all the good ones that we wish would stay and all the bad ones that we don’t want to have at all. So I didn’t frame it like that at the time, but afterwards reflecting on it, that was a useful metaphor for me to think of and to speak of. And that is what I do now, you know? And it’s kind of second nature to me now.
[00:18:18] Paula: I love that. I love that. The front door, back door, I love. So you allow the emotions to come in and you give them space to leave.
[00:18:28] Jane: Exactly.
[00:18:28] Paula: Because they are going to come. I love it.
[00:18:31] Jane: Well, cause the thing is with the ones that we like, like we like feeling loving, we like feeling happy. We like all those kind of things. Usually if you take the metaphor of the house, what we want to do is we want to welcome them in and keep them locked in there. We want to have them forever, but it doesn’t work like that. So we have to let those go as well. And the ones that we try and keep out, it doesn’t work to try and keep them out because they will find their way in eventually and they will cause damage as well if they don’t get a space. So that’s the whole point really, is giving space to the emotions and that allows us to blossom.
[00:19:06] Tesse: This is such a powerful thing.
[00:19:08] Paula: Yeah, it is. I was going to ask if she could think of words that are powerful or useful or helpful or soothing to anyone who’s gone through grief of any kind, what would those words be? I mean, I thought when you started talking about the back door, front door, like yeah. And then these other words too.
[00:19:31] Jane: Yeah, I think knowing that it will change because others before you that has happened for them. That was very helpful for me. It didn’t necessarily make me feel any better in the moment, but I knew that it was happening. Now, the person that I knew that I held onto as somebody who had done this was a very famous person indeed, Paul McCartney. I knew that he had been in love with his first wife, Linda, and that when she had died, we hadn’t heard of him for at least a year. You know, we, he must have been grieving, but I thought, if he can do it, I can do this too. And that was helpful, very helpful. Because there were plenty of times when I was awake in the middle of the night Googling,” how long does grief last”? You know,? Well, I never got an answer, of course, but there isn’t an answer to that.
[00:20:20] Paula: There isn’t.
[00:20:21] Jane: No, no.
[00:20:23] Paula: Tessie?
[00:20:24] Tesse: Yeah, you’ve been so real in saying things, and even in the examples you give, they’re very relatable examples. How long does grief last, you know, what practicalities from your experience would you say to people who are grieving that can at least help them on the journey. And as Paula said, I love the front and the back door analogy. I’m going to hold on to that. You know, it’s very powerful. What other things that from your experience could be helpful?
[00:20:59] Jane: You know, I love writing and I always have a journal on the go. In those days, my journal was getting a lot of very angry words, lots of scribbles, lots of rage, and that was okay with me. You know, that’s the purpose of a journal. You pour out your feelings into it. It’s not meant to be read by you unless you want to, and it’s certainly not meant to be read by anybody else. So that’s one thing. The other thing that I did a lot was expressing myself through color on paper, big sheets of paper. That was also really important, you know what? Cause I was quite angry quite a lot of the time. That was one of the emotions that came for me. So stomping when I went out for walks and I loved walking, so that was fine. But allowing myself to stomp angrily, you know, and to also to wasn’t necessarily shouting, you know, because you don’t want to shout if you think that people might hear you. But it’s amazing how well you can shout in your imagination if you need to. But I think the thing that I want to say about the journaling is that when I came to write my book, I was going back over my journals to see what had happened, I was of course confronted with the pain, the rawness of the feelings that I’d been writing about, and the very first time I did that was probably about a year on, maybe a bit later than that. And I realized that I wasn’t feeling as intensely as I had been. I was still having really bad days. But they weren’t as intense as they had been in those first few weeks, and that was actually really helpful to know because I’d forgotten, I’d just forgotten. That showed me that I was on a journey and that I was actually healing from grief and I was living into this new life that had been put on to me, not of my choice, but that it was happening and I found that very helpful.
[00:22:59] Paula: Yeah, great points. You know, two of the things that you mentioned, I also had to do the journaling, and I’m not much of a writer as Tesse would let you know. But my journaling came in the form of saying I wanted to write a book and I actually wrote the book, but I never published it. But it was so therapeutic for me. And then the coloring, yeah we got some coloring books and colored, you know. I had been introduced to that some years prior to my husband passing, but the coloring came in even more handy after he passed. And I also did Sudoku. I guess it was something to occupy my mind, but it was so thrilling and so helpful. So, wow, those are some great points as we are wrapping up. Tesse, is there anything else?
[00:23:52] Tesse: This is so real. I’m touched by what you’re saying, Jane, about intensity. You know that the pain remains, but intensity can over time reduce so you don’t feel you’re suffocated every day. This is just such a moving thing to talk about cause as we started, so we’re finishing, people don’t talk about these things and I think because there’s that silence alongside such pain, there are not many gains to be had in the journey that is not actually thought through in some intentional way.
[00:24:33] Jane: Yeah, yeah. I think just one last thing on this is. Somebody had told me this, I think, but it was also my experience, which is that it wasn’t, especially in that first year, it wasn’t necessarily the intensity that felt less, but the gaps in between the bad days grew longer. I could see that, which was helpful because those days that were relatively speaking okay, and they weren’t maybe still brilliant, they somehow gave me strength to get through the really bad days. And sometimes the really bad days were so bad I just went to bed, stayed under the duve, hugged my new little cuddly toy that I had bought and read ridiculous novels that nearly always ended up with somebody dying. It was awful. I don’t know how I managed to do that. But that’s all I could do. That’s all I could do, and I just let that happen.
[00:25:31] Tesse: Well, Paula, to you.
[00:25:33] Paula: Yeah. So I was wondering if there are any key takeaways that you can give to our listening audience who have gone through this? We know we’ll go through this at some point. I mean, death is part of life.
[00:25:46] Jane: I think it’s this idea, the sooner that you are willing to accept that, whether you like it or not, you’re having a different life, the easier it is to go with that different life. Because the man that I’m now married to, he was also a widower, but he dealt with his grief in a very different way. He fairly soon, I would’ve said after his wife died, he came to the conclusion that if somebody had told him when he was 20, cause they met when they were 20, that they would’ve had 43 years of marriage together and then it would’ve been over. He would’ve said, well, that’s fine, thank you very much, that’ll be great. And of course that is what happened. She also died of cancer, and he came to the point in himself where he thought, oh well, It was a bit like video games, you know, game over bonus life. I have a bonus life now. The difference between me and him was that he was, he felt good about having a bonus life. If I had thought that, I think that I would’ve thought, but I don’t want to have a bonus life, you know, this is not okay. So the more that one can be accepting of what is happening, that’s impossible, by the way, to start with. But that is what happens as part of the process.
[00:27:02] Paula: That’s powerful. Willing to accept that your life has changed forever. I think that’s something that we have to process as we can. Because that’s the reality, you know, you wake up every day and you try to, oh, that was a dream. Oh no, it wasn’t a dream. It’s real.
[00:27:21] Jane: Yeah,
[00:27:21] Paula: Yeah. And so to our wonderful listeners, we want you to know that as Jane has shared, all stories are important and all lives do matter. So sharing them with others could support, encourage and nurture them. We want also our listeners to be reassured by knowing that they are never alone. And we encourage our listeners to head over to “Apple Podcast”, “Google Podcast”, “Spotify”, or anywhere that you listen to podcasts and please click subscribe. And if you have found “TesseLeads” helpful, please let us know in your reviews. If you’d like to have any questions or topics covered, send us a note. And if you’d like to be a guest on our show, “TesseLeads”, head over to “tesseleads.com/contact” and apply. And with that same note, I want to mention to our listeners, we now have a new website dedicated to “TesseLeads”. It’s of course, “www.tesseleads.com”. Join us in celebrating. Thank you, Jane.
[00:28:35] Tesse: Thank you, Jane.
A Treasure Trove and Fragrance
Erin Randall is indeed a treasure trove and fragrance. When asked how she would like people to notice about her, Erin answers humbly “I want to be noticed as the coach who will be with you and stay with you. The coach who reflects back your loveliness so that you can work with that. “Ever the skilled and compassionate coach, Erin reminds us of the work of Caitlin Walker PhD, Director of Clean Learning and the Developer of Systemic Modelling. Dr Caitlin uses clean language, asking clean questions and encouraging clean work. The impact of this approach is to ask move towards curiosity without judgement, creating safe spaces for systems to respond.
Erin espouses the value of reflective spaces and creating opportunities for off line processing that are unique and special . All parts of the system are different and special. I will definitely be watching Bird Cage the movie through a more thoughtful and considered lens.
The concept of transformation also takes on a new glow as Erin uncovers catalysts for change the gentle step and the considered stage that brings clarity about the change we seek, the ability to sit with questions and the capacity to help us settle and step into uncertainty and ambiguity with the right level of space and attention that enriches our thinking, our productivity and our work. Ironically this means that we need to slow down in order to speed up. No mean feat in a fast-moving world!
The effervescent Erin turns her attention to the concept of stewardship. How do we care for and with someone or something else? On a personal note, how do I want to be in those moments? How do we listen well with care and dedication. How do we listen? In what ways do we listen? What questions do we cook up? Co active work is deep work. Curiosity leads to creating the conditions for sustained change. Nudging a person, a system, a team into the behaviours they seek can lead to sustainable impact.
The conversation moves on to moving from sadness towards joy. . Joy is an effervescent emotion coming in when it is possible. For every system and every person the blessing can be on the other side of comfort as relationships, systems and process work towards improvement. Erin is reflective “You can’t know joy if you don’t know sadness. As we go through painful and as situations, we can see ourselves on the other side”. Erin shares how she had several years of challenge as she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
She experienced joy only because she had walked in something else. Paula shares as she went through a sad and challenging time following the sudden death of her husband. What got Paula through in her words was, “ putting one foot in front of the other, helped me to get closer to where I needed to be”. Erin is empathetic encouraging listeners to listen well, saying “I am listening and I am here to be of service to you.”
This was a beautiful time together. Erin reminds us that “Beauty is on the inside and the outside. Beauty is not a special occasion.” The question about what do you want others to notice in us” can be a place of us to reflect and to grow as we see our beauty within and consciously consider how this is reflected to others .
[00:00:00] Paula: Hi everyone, I’m Paula Okonneh and I want to say welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host Tesse Akpeki and co-host me Paula Okonneh. The “TesseLeads” podcast is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space to share hear and tell your stories and experiences. You’ll hear how top experts and thought leaders have created opportunities, navigated a diverse range of challenges, confronted their dilemmas and shaped their futures. Our guest today is Erin Randall. I’ll tell you about her. Erin Randall describes herself as a longtime coach, organizational coactive and agile, so that much of her work revolves around being, doing, experimenting and showing that you, her client, have gotten the work done. Erin has a deep passion for helping people transform from humdrum to remarkable. Creating lasting change and joy in their own lives. And she grounds her work in humanist principles with a simple goal in mind. Happy people doing great work. Thanks for saying yes, Erin, to being a guest on “TesseLeads”.
[00:01:26] Erin: How could I not? I so enjoyed our conversation the last time that I was here, that I was overjoyed that you wanted to have me come back.
[00:01:36] Tesse: Erin, I’m so excited to have you back, and I wouldn’t want it to be any other way at any other time. You know, you remind me of the fragrance, which I have taken the liberty of renaming Erin Fragrance. And that is about your presence, about your kindness, about your compassion, about your care. So thank you for saying yes to us.
[00:01:57] Erin: Well, if I’m a fragrance, I don’t think I’ve ever been thought of as in those ways. Because I’m thinking of all the times when I’m at my parents’ house during the summer up in Montana and the first thing I do in the mornings is go down to the barn and clean some stalls and feed some horses and move some horses around. So I don’t think I’m very fragrant in a way that you want me to be fragrant at that time of day.
[00:02:22] Paula: Tell that to a horse. They may differ with you Erin.
[00:02:26] Erin: Yeah.
[00:02:29] Tesse: Yeah, Paula there’s something you were noticing. Do you have a question for Erin?
[00:02:33] Paula: Yeah, so unfortunately listeners can’t see this, but Erin came on Zoom with such a beautiful scarf. And we started talking about scarfs and their significance. And Erin has a story that she would love to share with you all.
[00:02:53] Erin: Okay. So I’ll try to also describe the scarf a bit for those people who are listening and cannot see it. But this scarf is the first beautiful thing that I ever bought for myself as an adult. And it’s a great big orangey red scarf with a beautiful print on it. And I have it tied just so, because I watched the Pinterest tutorial that I was able to do it. And it kind of has a big loop and a bow off to the side, so that when I wear this scarf, I am reminded to be my best self and to bring that forward. So for me, scarves are not only a way to save a bad outfit, but they also reflect kind of what’s going on inside for me. So they’re kind of a bellweather for internal happenings and the like. And so this one is just beautiful, because beauty, it’s like I told a friend the other day, beauty is not a special occasion. It’s not a special occasion. So the scarf reminds me to step into that today and every day.
[00:03:57] Tesse: Wow. Beauty is not a special occasion. I really, really love that. It’s so touching and you know when I said, you know, something that comes to my mind when I see you, is beauty on the inside and beauty on the outside. Erin, what would you like people to notice about you?
[00:04:19] Erin: For those playing along at home, that is perhaps one of the deepest and most personal questions I think I’ve been asked in a long time. What do I want people to notice about me?I want them to know my heart. I want them to notice the care and the craftsmanship with which I do my work. I want them to know the regard and the care that I have for all of them as they go about their work. I love that question and it’s one of those that I could really take back and reflect on on my own for quite some time just because it is so big. And I can’t help but think how often all of us could use a question like that. What do we want others to see in us? What do we want them to notice? So thank you, that’ll be my question for my own reflective practice later this evening too.
[00:05:20] Tesse: It’s a kind of a treasure trove and thank you for your honesty in answering that and reflecting on that. Because every encounter we’ve had, whether you know, virtual on Agile Austin, or even the pre recorder, even now you bring a certain level of joy all the time. And you know, it’s sort of one of those things where you think that what you say is what you act out. I went to your website and I noticed that you stand for “Joy”.
[00:05:54] Erin: I do.
[00:05:55] Tesse: People living their best lives and people doing things that scare them most. And I’m so curious about what brought you along this path of standing for joy and people living their best lives.
[00:06:08] Erin: I think the follow up to what the, you know, I stand for joy for people living their best lives. You know, I fall seven rise eight is the follow one piece to that. Happiness is one thing,okay. Joy for me is an effervescent emotion that capture there. It’s like trying to hold onto lightning and the like, but I want that for people. I Don’t want them to just take of happiness as commonplace that day-to-day, you know existence. I want joy to be coming in whenever possible, okay. But to understand that the fall seven rise eight means that we also need to be resilient. And where we don’t fall joy, where we fall down, how do we get back up and continue forward so that we do find it and the like. Joy comes in so many different flavors, containers, experiences, but it’s all personal too.And I want more than anything for every system, every person with which I interact for them to have that for themselves, to know what that is. And not to just be seeking, but to know that they can find it too.
[00:07:25] Paula: I love that. And on that same note, I wondered if you could explain what you meant, that blessing is on the other side of comfort.
[00:07:37] Erin: Have you ever done something really hard, really difficult, and you didn’t know what you were doing or why you were doing it, but you kept pushing on through, pushing, pushing, pushing, and all of a sudden you broke through and you’re like, oh, this is why I did it. That for me, that is the blessing on the other side of comfort. I think I was thinking about that. Several years ago, I used to have a really big soul cycle habit, really big, like I was there a lot. And I loved it because it was so difficult, because it was so hard for me to do all of the time. But the blessing of finishing a class, knowing that I gave my all, that I gave my very best, that I left it all there on the mat. And there wasn’t anything that I wished that I’d done differently or at all. That was the blessing on the other side of comfort. And that I take forward now in our relationships, in systems work, in working to improve my own skillset and just being. Knowing that the blessing is on the other side of comfort. We can all be in discomfort now, it’s transitory, it’s just for here, there will be something else later. And that’s what I mean by that. Also very Buddhist of me, isn’t it? .
[00:08:56] Tesse: Very, very deep. Very deep. As you say that there is something that comes to my mind as well, which is joy, which you mentioned and sadness. And I’ve heard that saying about joy being at the other side of sadness, those kind of polarities happening. I’m curious about your thoughts on that. I’ll speak for myself when I’m in a really sad place, and I’ve recently a lot of very sad experiences. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever experience joy again, and those polarities how do they work?
[00:09:37] Erin: I don’t think, would you know joy if you didn’t first know grief or sadness? It’s because we know one that we can only know the other. And by fully standing and fully experiencing, knowing, then it’s also easier to see ourselves, at least I believe on that other side. It’s kind of like that old, you know, Sesame Street, you know, which one of these is not like the other? Well that is. You know, a few years ago, I think I was telling you earlier, I was really sick, okay. I had breast cancer and it was not a fun couple of years. And it wasn’t just being sick. It was like things kept piling on. It was, you know, the house was trying to like kill us, that we had this happen and we had this happen. So much so that people were just kind of looking at me like, oh my Lord. I mean, what’s going on over there? And all I knew was that the blessing would be on the other side of comfort. I just had to keep going. The universe at some point would go pick on someone else. But it made it easier for me to grasp, to stand in to fully experience joy, only because that I had walked through something else. Only because I’d walked through something else. And it gave me an appreciation for and better understanding of what that was.
[00:11:09] Tesse: That’s powerful, very.
[00:11:12] Paula: Oh, very true. I have never heard someone express it as well as you have. Because that has been my mantra. After my husband passed away, I was like, all of this, I mean, it was one thing after the next. But I knew putting one foot in front the next would get me closer to where I’m supposed to get to. So that now that things are better, I can look back and see where I came from and appreciate where I am even better. And also be able to empathize and help people who are going through similar things to say, yeah, it’s rough.
[00:11:51] Erin: Yeah. And to realize, you know that’s honestly one of my favorite things about maturing, about getting older, is that, I feel like I have a better idea of what to say sometimes when a person is going through something. I don’t need to give advice. I don’t need to tell them what to do. I can just tell them simply that I’m listening. Or it’s like,” hey, I’m going to bring this over” if it’s helpful, great, if it’s not, let me know and I’ll take it back. It’s better able to be of service to someone else, and to me that’s also a form of joy. And knowing that I was able to meet a person where they were and to make it a little bit less awful for them. And I’m really sorry about your husband, Paula. I’m really sorry.
[00:12:40] Tesse: He was a fantastic guy. Good man. Kind, caring, competent. So many things. I’m so sorry about it. One of the things that comes to my mind, the question which I hadn’t prepared, but I’m putting it out there. Your story, like your upbringing, you know, how your parents, you know, your growing up, your early years, was there anything there that had led to where you are now and how you’re thinking about life and the world?
[00:13:14] Erin: I think for all of us, however we grew up, wherever we grew up, I think that influences and begins the story for whomever it is that we become. I will say that I use so much of that early experience you know. You all I’m not kidding, where I grew up every morning before school we would go over and clean stalls and, you know, feed horses and feed cattle and the like. You know, we had a lot of agricultural responsibilities. But that also taught me stewardship. How do we care for something else? How do we care for someone else? And I cannot help but carry that forward now into my work here. You know, knowing what it means to be a steward of skills of the trust that people put in me when they’re asking for help with their systems, with how they’re working and the like. Plus, I mean, I’ll be honest, the ability to know what hard work really is. That has been invaluable, because I don’t know about everyone else, but working out on ranches and the like, that is a lot of hot, dry, dusty work. And yeah, it’s a little bit easier here, being inside sometimes.
[00:14:30] Tesse: I love that, you know, you can see your systems thinking here and your design thinking about connecting the knowledge of different things, experiences that one can go through that you’ve been through. And sort of making sense of that about how you arrive at where you are and seeing those interconnections between them. It’s just beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Inspiring, inspiring.
[00:14:59] Erin: Well, you know, I think about how you work with a horse, a dog, how you work with that animal shows up in my other work, okay? So if I might be out riding or something, working with that horse. How I ride is how I will coach. How do I want to be in those moments?How do I want to be in those moments? So you asked the question earlier, what is it that I want others to notice about me? It still goes back to the care. It still goes back to the dedication, that I’ll put in the practice and the hard work. Something isn’t where I want it to be, I’m going to go back and work on that more and more. But also I have to pay really close attention, and that I think has really influenced how I listen and in what ways I listen. Because it’s not just an auditory process. You know, listening, there’s that listening with your whole body. Oh yeah, that’s a thing. You know what’s coming up, as I think about something, ooh, now I better go pay attention.
[00:16:05] Tesse: I love it. Paula, you’re looking reflective.
[00:16:10] Paula: I am listening. I’m listening to every word she says.
[00:16:14] Erin: I know. But we’re also afraid you’re cooking up a really big question back there, with which she stopped me and I’m going to be like what.
[00:16:22] Tesse: You know her. You know her well.
[00:16:26] Paula: That was a long laugh. I’ll make it simple. There were two things that jumped out at me. I love the fact, this is very simple but impactful. Now you want to help people transform from humdrum to remarkable, and create lasting change in their own lives. That was impactful to me. And so my question was, is that what it means to be a proactive coach?
[00:16:50] Erin: She wasn’t kidding on the stumping part. I think that is. When I think about coactive work, that’s when I do the deep one-on-one work with an individual, and that is there. But it’s also calling on my skills as an All Score systems coach. Because I’m trying to create the successful ground conditions for sustainable change. I’m not, I’m always, and maybe I should go back and revisit that word transform in that overview right there. Because really what I’m trying to do is help people nudge themselves, or help systems nudge, you know, just tiny step. What’s the tiny thing that you can do that gets you in the direction that you want to go, Okay. Because for me, those big transformational changes where it’s like, I’m going to walk through the water and be reborn on the other side. Okay, that sounds wonderful, okay. But we’re human and we take all of our experience and all of our knowledge and all of the things, the habits that we’ve built, and we keep doing them on the other side. So how can we nudge a person, a system, a team into the behavior that they seek. And sometimes it’s asking them, you know, what do you hope others notice? But then how do you want to make that happen? How do you want to make that happen? So yeah, I do want to help people transform or nudge from humdrum to remarkable. But the thing is, their idea of humdrum and their idea of remarkable is undoubtedly different than mine. But I want them to step into whatever it is or whoever it is that they want to be. And I want that to be a sustainable lasting change for them, not something that’s going to fall apart the second that we aren’t working together. Does that make sense?
[00:18:39] Paula: A lot. You are remarkable. I wish we had recorded this video recording, because it encompasses everything about you. I mean, you are very, our listeners can’t see the interaction we are having together. But Erin is very warm, you are very inviting. There’s a deep understanding that exudes from you. And I’ve never met you before, but that’s what I pick up.
[00:19:03] Erin: You made a bottle that more, put that in the bottle that Tesse’s got over there. We can spray it on people as they walk in, because it’s true.
[00:19:09] Tesse: With a perfume. Yeah, absolutely true.
[00:19:12] Paula: It’s true. It means a lot to help people nudge themselves out from a humdrum to remarkable lives, cause life is tough.
[00:19:23] Erin: I think we need to be really careful about that word transform. I definitely need to go back and revisit, you know how I’ve written that there on that page. I’m thinking about catalyst for change and even that sounds, I love that word, catalyst, but nudge. Maybe it’s that gentle step. It’s like, okay, well what if this morning I walk the dogs for another 20 minutes? Meanwhile, Eleanor and Beatrice who are back here are like, yeah, let’s do that. I think the question that comes up there iswhat is the change you seek? And I don’t know it’s different for all of us. But I think we need to be able to sit with that question and really be with it, and to listen for what’s coming up there to pay attention.
[00:20:08] Tesse: I just love that concept and applying that to coaching, which is very powerful of sitting with something, not rushing on. I recall last year I was actually working with a counselor, psychologist, and he would just sit. And it was so hard because what I wanted to do was to rush onto some action or to rush onto something. But what he taught me to do was to sit with stuff, even when that stuff was uncomfortable and difficult. When it was painful, when it was, I would use the word chaotic and messy. You know, is that something thatresonates with you in coaching as well?
[00:20:57] Erin: Very much so. I was working with a system last week and we were talking about the value of reflection. And sitting with something in its messiness is giving it that reflective space. And we were talking about it kind of in three ways. So number one, you know, by giving its space for offline processing, that’s when I literally will go sit on some yoga blocks and just be with a system in my head, in my heart as I think about what’s happening there for them. But by giving that offline processing, it takes it out of all the storm and drama right there and brings it back down. And it’s just to be with it there for a moment. But the second way that reflective work, it stops work. And this is more from somatic coaching. It stops that somatic grab, okay. So think about it, when you have someone come up and grab your arm unexpectedly that’s obvious physical form of a grab. But what about when you get that unexpected email that’s asking you to do something that you hadn’t planned for or someone dropped something in a Slack channel? Again, different kinds of grab, all right. And by having that reflective space, it helps you just settle. Think about that for a second, take a deep breath and how do you want to respond to that? You know in Agile for a long time, we’ve talked about react versus respond. We want to respond, but that space there gives us time to step into response. And the third way that I was thinking about this, was a takeoff from the American poet “Mary Oliver”, and she has a line in her collection Upstream where she writes “attention is the beginning of devotion”. And I bastardize that a little bit. You know, what is your intention that you are taking forward with either that team or that system or that person. Intention can also be the beginning of devotion too and how do we want to incorporate that? What is our intention for that work? And that’s where I think sitting with something sometimes and really being with it and getting clear on that nudge that change you seek can be really helpful. And to slow down so that you can speed up later, or even continue to slow down more.
[00:23:22] Tesse: Wow, Paula, I’m going to give, because I need to sit with this thought right now.
[00:23:28] Erin: Just wondering, like, I’m going to take this back for myself.
[00:23:30] Tesse: I’m going to sit with this thought, you know as I spray my Erin fragrance. I’m doing this Paula.
[00:23:37] Erin: Remember you call it the Erin fragrance, seriously, still in my head. I’m like, you haven’t smelled me when I’m walked out of the barn. I’m not kidding. Because my mom has a horse named Doug, and Doug has his own emotional support pony named Jazzy, and she’s a terrier So literally my mom has the Doug and Pony show, not the dog and pony show. She has the Doug and Pony show. And I’m sorry, even a well kept barn, which is a beautiful place, you know because they smell like hay and everything. But you still wind up smelling like the barn, all right. And I’m like going, wow, that’s an interesting fragrance you’re going to be having if you’re pulling it from me.
[00:24:15] Tesse: Yeah. But you know that reminds me of that thing about realities, isn’t it? You know, kind of reality of that smell and the memories that are with it. Plus, when you’re talking about effort and work and all those things, that’s the fragrance. That is a fragrance. That’s what makes that unique. That’s what makes that special and memorable, and that’s what we embrace. That fragrance is what it is. And when I’m thinking of you, it’s all those things. You know the barn Erin, the coach Erin, the all the different parts of, she’s all these things. All these things, you know, and you know
[00:24:57] Erin: Know that old, it’s that Robin Williams, Nathan Lane movie, the Bird Cage.
[00:25:03] Tesse: I’ve heard of it. I never, yes.
[00:25:04] Erin: Yeah. Well there’s this great scene in there where Robin Williams, he’s on stage with Nathan Lane, but Robin Williams is, you know, imitating all these different styles of dance. He’s like, you know, Fosse, Fosse, Fosse, Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Twila, Twila, and they keep it all inside. Yeah. It’s like all these different fragrances and you keep it all inside. And I highly recommend that movie by the way. If you do not laugh yourself sick, I don’t know what will make you laugh.
[00:25:35] Tesse: I’m going to definitely, that’s on my to watch list, it is. The different parts of you, the different parts of you. I’m going to, Paula as I said, I’m sitting with the Erin’s fragrance, and I leave you with the last word, the last question, Paula.
[00:25:52] Erin: I’ll let you get the last question.
[00:25:53] Tesse: She does.
[00:25:56] Paula: I have a statement.
[00:25:58] Erin: Oh, you have a statement? Okay. Let’s hear your statement Paula.
[00:26:03] Paula: The Erin fragrance is real.
[00:26:06] Erin: The Erin fragrance is real. It’s real earthy.
[00:26:14] Paula: I love the work you do.
[00:26:16] Erin: Thank you.
[00:26:17] Paula: I mean, it’s not superficial in the least.
[00:26:20] Tesse: No.
[00:26:20] Paula: It touches the soul. And we need that. We need that.
[00:26:26] Tesse: We all do.
[00:26:27] Erin: Yeah. Nothing would make me happier than being, you know, you asked me how I wanted to be known. How do I want it to be noticed? I want to be known as that coach, that systems coach who will be with you. She will walk with you. She will stand with you. I cry with my clients. I sometimes make them angry. I show them things. I reflect things in their system. I read what’s there. But I want them to have those skills going forward so that they can share that with the world too.
[00:27:01] Paula: And on that note, what else can we say, so that they can share that with the world.
[00:27:06] Erin: Let me say one more thing on that. I was asked earlier today about some of my work, and I think as a systems coach part of my job is to reteach a thing, it’s loveliness, and that’s a line from a “Galway Canal” poem. And by the way if anyone’s paying attention, this is where you start to get those humanist principles that I bring into all my work. We’ve already gone through at least two poets here, probably a third, so that’s where it’s coming in. But “Galway Canal”, you know, to reteach a thing, it’s loveliness. All systems are beautiful. Sometimes we just need help seeing that. How do we work with that? How do we want to be in that? So that systems can see it again for themselves, and they become healthy and whole and productive and nudged in the direction that is joyful for them. Yeah. Oh see, I figured that out for myself now too. Nice job, Paula. Well done.
[00:28:07] Tesse: I told you Podcast Paula, not to be toyed with. .
[00:28:13] Erin: Well, there’s a bumper sticker in that in there. “Podcast Paula” not to be toyed.
[00:28:19] Tesse: Exactly.
[00:28:21] Paula: No, I mean, Erin, as I said, the fragrance is real. The different fragrances that Tesse outlined there, Erin, the organizational, the coactive and agile coach person.
[00:28:35] Erin: The powerful elixir, the three of them combined. I think going forward I want to add more work, you know around the somatic side. I’ve done a bit of work there. I want to add more of that. You are lucky Tesse over in the UK you have a really wonderful coach, Caitlin Walker. And she does a lot of work around clean language. And I’m going to be adding of that work too.
[00:28:58] Tesse: Yeah, yeah. And we’re bringing you back to talk about clean language and clean questions and that’s another one.
[00:29:06] Erin: Oh, yeah, I’ll bring you guest too.
[00:29:08] Tesse: We’ll be, yeah, please do. Cause I want to bring Paula, I’m big on that. And I think I got big enough because of you actually, because I came to your session on clean questions.
[00:29:22] Erin: No, that work, you know, I was actually talking about that earlier today. Blank access questions with an ork of the tie is so, you know, it’s right there with that clean work and really asking a question free of judgment that doesn’t have my own metaphor. It’s not freighted with my own work to be able to ask that of a system and then give it space to respond. Yeah. Do you ever notice that systems are often just waiting to be asked a question. They’ve been overlooked, shunted put down quieted for so long. But to ask the question and then to wait for the answer. Oh yeah.
[00:30:01] Paula: And I think that’s what happened here today.
[00:30:04] Erin: Yeah.
[00:30:04] Paula: We got answers. And so again to our wonderful guests, you noticed your precious stories and your lives matter as shown by Erin Randall. So we ask our listeners and we ask anyone who wants to be on this show to know that in “TesseLeads”, you’re supported, you’re encouraged, and you’re nurtured by our guests and by the quality of questions and answers that we get. So please head over to “Apple Podcast”, “Google Podcast”, “Spotify”, or anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and click subscribe. And if you’d like to be a guest on a show, reach out to us on our new website, “TesseLeads”, which is “www.tesseleads.com/contact”, and we will definitely get in touch with you.
Celebrating Max Ekesi
Podcasters united cross three countries, United Kingdom, United States and Nigeria. Paula Okonneh, Tesse Akpeki and Sade Marriot joined podcast guest Max Ekesi, President / CEO of the Agile Austin Organisation and IT Senior Manager at Paypal. Max has been leading Agile Transformations since 2007 in large enterprises specifically leveraging Agile & Kaizen principles.
Max’s 47th Birthday visiting Disneyland California was special. He spent quality time with his family. Turning to work, Max shares how the agile mindset that focuses on value, being fluid, adaptable, purposeful, nimble and committed to making a difference has given so much value to his life.
“You are either adapting or being disrupted as you are choosing to be proactive or reactive. Creating high performing teams in Bangalore, Singapore and Lagos and doing these together meet the hopes and dream of people in developing countries. “
“Clarity of expectations and a focus on potential underpins agility. ChatGPT which is the human interaction with AI is an exciting development towards adaptability and growth. What is essential is learning and growing together.”
“Taking the best part of experiences in any situation can advance the fortunes of people in different countries. As digital entities such as Paypal and Dell share their expertise, help out, spark interest and give back to developing countries, young people are better supported, have opportunities to connect and better enabled to leverage their huge potential even in the face of infrastructure issues. “
Voicing her encouragement, Banana Island Living podcaster Sade Marriot says,
“A bank of experiences become currency as people are able to function at every level as IP is shared. “
Agreeing, Max replies that mining potential in Lagos, Nigeria for a better tomorrow to offer support and good jobs has formed part of his celebratory memories.
“Regardless of the circumstances, people in developing economies contribute to the future I can see. Together we can identify and tackle inequity by applying democratization approaches. I can use my life to get things done and make a difference through utilising an agile agenda looking through a realistic lens of what becomes possible as we do this together.”
Finding My Way Dealing With Burnout
Lisa Hammett talks about how she dealt with burnout and found a way out. “My mother, was bipolar, diagnosed late in life. It was chronic anxiety related. There were periods in my life growing up where she wouldn’t talk to me for like a week. If I did something to really upset her, she would just completely shut me out. I developed people pleasing tendencies and hyper achieving tendencies. I was always pushing myself really hard to get good grades and doing everything to please her.” For my mom I would tell myself she’s doing the best she can and give her some grace”.
“My experience, reaching burnout has really led me to where I can serve my clients to the best of my ability now”.
“Success is different to everybody. We’re so used to playing small that it’s hard for us to envision what our life can look like if we really were to be successful and allow ourselves to be successful. We all have that capability within us.”
“A misguided view of what success really looked like can add to a skewed world view. “Being happy, healthy, and fulfilled really to me is successful.”
The right brain is love and the left brain is fear. “I was so afraid of being vulnerable and being judged. A better approach is using more empathy as opposed to judgment and blame.”
When asked what words are meaningful to her, Lisa recalls these as “pause”, “limitless possibilities “ and “grateful”. “When we practice gratitude consistently, we are happier and healthier. We can better impact the lives of others. Why we were put on this earth, is to impact others in our own unique way”.
Lisa Hammett, is an author, a TEDx speaker and a success coach, and helps stressed and burned out business owners and executives develop mental fitness, manage stress, manage anxiety, and ultimately get healthy.
[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host Tesse Akpeki and co-host Paula Okonneh, that’s me. “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space to share your story, to hear stories, and to tell your stories and experiences. Here our top experts and thought leaders are creating opportunities, navigating diverse range of challenges, confronting their dilemmas and shaping their future. Our guest today is Lisa Hammett, and her topic today is “finding my way towards dealing with burnout”. I’ll tell you a bit about Lisa. She’s an author. She’s a TEDx speaker and a success coach. She helps stressed and burntout business owners and executives develop mental fitness, manage stress, manage anxiety, and ultimately get healthy. After 26 years in the corporate retailing industry, she reached a burnout. So she left the corporate sector in 2005 and started her wellness journey and lost 65 pounds in the process. Fastforward to 2021, she completed an intensive global coaching program with high performing coach or HPC. And she’s currently working on her positive intelligence certification. She has a book, she’s an author, and we’ll let her talk about that as I welcome her to “TesseLeads”.
[00:01:55] Lisa: Thank you so much. I’m delighted to be here.
[00:01:59] Tesse: Hi lisa, I am so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for coming along. You know the first time I saw you, I was saying to myself, if we get you on the show, that will be a boon. And when you said yes, I couldn’t contain myself. So thank you for coming. And meeting you again is just so exciting. You know Lisa, what comes to my mind is your journey that led you towards this track of the best life. And you know, I’m curious, and I’m sure Paula is as well and our listeners will be, about your personal journey. What was growing up like? You know, what were the things that, the highlights that led you to this pathway where you are helping others to go towards their best life?
[00:02:49] Lisa: That’s a great question, because I never in a million years thought I would’ve ended up in the coaching space or professional speaking, let alone writing a book. I think all of our life circumstances happen for a reason. And as you mentioned I spent 26 years in the corporate retail sector and I reached burnout. And I felt like I had hit a wall and was miserable and unhealthy. My relationship was challenged, and I left and went through some major personal development. And during that period I realized about myself how a lot of my behavior stemmed from situations with my mother when I was growing up. My parents adopted me older in life, they were from the depression era. And my mother, she was bipolar basically and was never really diagnosed until late in life. And it was more chronic anxiety related. But there were periods in my life growing up where she wouldn’t talk to me for like a week. If I did something to really upset her, she would just completely shut me out. So I developed people pleasing tendencies and hyper achieving tendencies so that I was always pushing myself really hard to get good grades and, you know, doing everything to please her. Because, oh my gosh if I didn’t, you know, she would shut me out. So this manifested in a lot of stress and unnecessary stress that I placed on myself as a young adult and then older in life. And it, you know, transitioned into the workplace, and it was difficult and I realized that that is no way to live. We can’t please everybody. And then it all stemmed you know really from fear, fear of being successful. And I just, I had to do a lot of personal work to get through that. And I think, you know, my personal work and then my experience, reaching burnout has really led me to where I can serve my clients to the best of my ability now, and why I’m so passionate about it. Because I just, I don’t want them to go through what I went through. Because it’s not a good place to be in.
[00:05:14] Paula: Wow. I’m speechless. There’s something that you said that really touched me or jumped out at me. The fear of being successful. You know, we hear a lot more about the fear of failure. That fear of being successful is a big thing. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:05:32] Lisa: Yes, you’re so right. You know, you hear of failure, you know fear of not doing well, but fear of success. Because we’re so used to playing small that it’s hard for us to envision what our life can look like if we really were to be successful, and allow ourselves to be successful. Because we all have that capability within us. We’re all on an equal playing field. We don’t feel that way often, but we all have that within us. And it’s literally our fears that hold us back. And fearing success is basically saying, well I haven’t been really successful before, so what makes me think I could be really successful now? Or maybe you were successful but you had a misguided view of what success really looked like and you attached it to what other people, you know, how they measured success or how you perceived that they were successful. When really, yes, they might be doing well, but in their mind they might not even be fully successful. So it’s all this mind trash that we tell ourselves and this misperceptions that we have of other people and our environment, that just really can create a lot of stress and trauma.
[00:06:59] Tesse: Yeah, I mean there are lots of people, including myself, that would be thinking this fear of success and be able to relate to it. And there are not a lot of sessions like teaching sessions or others that actually go into, as Paula was saying, into the fear of success and what that mean. So I’m rather curious in linking that fear of success with fear of failure and your role as a success coach. What does a success coach do? We’ve heard of life coaching, executive coaching, but success coach, excuse me, what does that mean? Enlighten us Lisa.
[00:07:34] Lisa: Okay, yeah, cause it does encompass a lot of different things. And to your point, success is different to everybody. Your version of success could be vastly different from what I feel success is. Some individuals attach monetary success to their wellbeing, and they want to reach a certain income, and when they’ve reached that certain income, they feel like, okay I’ve finally arrived I’m successful. And for me, I found that being happy, healthy, and fulfilled really to me is successful. And yes there is the monetary component to it, but that’s not the most important piece of it. So when I work with clients it’s really defining for them what does success look like to them. And for them to really visualize what it’s going to feel like when they reach that point in their life. And to realize that just because they lose weight, for example, doesn’t mean that they might be happy, successful, and fulfilled. So it’s not like a destination, it’s really an emotional mindset that needs to be developed over a period of time. So that’s why I love working with clients because it’s a process and it’s different for everybody. And the mind is such a powerful piece in the puzzle.
[00:08:58] Tesse: I love this, you know, kind of the mindset. A few days ago I was on LinkedIn, Paula is at the brunt of my exciting moments. Cause when I see these things, I just send them onto her. And there was something like, there’s a picture of an umbrella and you know, what was happening with that umbrella and asking a different kind of question about, oh, these are the challenges we’re facing. What would success look like and who can help us? And then the other thing was a funnel, and this funnel was actually kind of like towards convergent thinking and saying, oh help we’re getting outta here. So the two different shifts. So over to you Lisa, about what kind of things have you been seeing from your experience as being barriers that can get in the way of that best life? What kind of things? Cause you’re saying these things to me and I’m thinking, yeah, we can do it. I can do it. Paula can do it. But sometimes I think we might sabotage ourselves. So what do those sabotage things, what do they look like? How can we experience those things that create, you know, kind of walls or, you know deep pitfalls for us?
[00:10:00] Lisa: That’s a great question and that’s why I love the mental fitness piece of this, the whole positive intelligence mental fitness piece. Because what it does is, it’s a science between your left brain and your right brain and all of your negative emotions. All those saboteurs that you just alluded to, those reside in your left brain, your left analytical brain. And in the positive intelligence sector you know, some of our saboteurs include, well, first and foremost our judge, which is judgements that we feel about ourselves. How we judge ourselves, but also how we judge others. And that is like the ringleader of all the saboteurs and then the others attached to them. And it can be the controller, it could be the hyper-rational. It could be the hyper-vigilant. It could be the pleaser. It could be the hyper achiever. It could be the stickler. There’s so many different ones. But it’s recognizing where you fall into that and creating awareness and the whole mental fitness piece of it is being able to recognize them when they appear, intercepting them and then shifting to a positive mindset, which we call the sage perspective. And that’s where peace, clarity, calm, reside. And when we are making decisions or having conversations from the sage perspective, we are looking at things from love basically. So the right brain is love and the left brain is fear basically. So when we’re looking at things from love, we have a whole different mindset and we can look at challenges as what is a gift and opportunity in this? Or let’s look at this situation with empathy, you know. Is there somebody who’s really challenging that is triggering us, but being able to say, okay, if I were to put myself in their shoes with what they’re going through, how would I feel? You know, really relating to that. And then learning to look at the big picture and understanding and being curious, you know when your saboteur arises. Huh, why is it doing that? Why am I feeling that way? So it’s just, it’s a fascinating science and you know the actual technique that we use to shift that mindset is very simple and you can do it in the moment. So if you are triggered instead of just automatically responding, which is human nature, it just causes us to pause and engage on actually one of our senses. So it could be sense of sight, touch, hearing, taste. And doing that for like 10 to 15 seconds, so that it takes the focus off of that issue and just kind of puts us into a space of where we’re really not thinking about anything, and then we can respond from the right brain.
[00:13:07] Paula: I’m just loving this Lisa. You know one of my mantras or my daily mantra is, I learn something new every day. And I love that I’ve learned today that the right brain is love and the left brain is fear. I need to figure out which one I am.
[00:13:32] Tesse: Paula, I know from what I’ve seen of you, you have so much love going on. That’s
[00:13:46] Paula: So Lisa, we live in the age where we have so much information at our fingertips and you know there’s so many things, new things to learn. I knew I’m a baby bloomer, so let me just say this. But I wanted to learn things. When growing up I had to go to the library, probably look for an encyclopedeia, you know, and spend some time there. Now we do not have to do all of that. I mean, we can, that’s one of our options rather than our only choices. And so listening to you talk about your early life. You had a mom who was bipolar and how it affected you. If you were to talk with your mom or if you could talk to your younger self, what would you say to yourself now that you know what you know?
[00:14:29] Lisa: I would say to myself that she’s doing the best she can, and that it is the illness and it’s not her, and that she loves me. And I know that now, and I knew that to a point, but I would get so angry and resentful and then would just retreat. And then, you know, it took me years to really feel comfortable to communicate in a more intimate way, you know, with someone in conversation. Because I was so afraid of being vulnerable and being judged. So it’s really using more empathy as opposed to judgment and blame. And just, you know, say she’s doing the best she can and give her some grace.
[00:15:23] Paula: What you just said is important because as I said, we know now what we didn’t know. And so I still come across young people who have been parented by parents who didn’t know what we know now. And that’s a great thing for people to know that they did the best that they could with what they knew. That’s very helpful. It’s healing almost, you know? Cause then you know, we don’t spend a lot of time, as you said, with the mindtrash, you know, in second guessing ourselves or second guessing somebody else’s motive when we understand that they did the best that they could with what they had.
[00:16:04] Tesse: That’s so beautiful. So beautiful, Lisa. You know, you’ve given us such a gift from your heart. And I can really feel hearts coming through. And you know, what’s coming into my mind is back to that best life. And for you, you know, if you were to do like three words for your best life, for Lisa. Now it’s you. I’m encouraging you, we are inviting you to be selfish and tell us your three best words for your best life, what would they be?
[00:16:33] Lisa: My three words for living my best life would be, “Pause”. The word “Limitless” comes to mind, and it was actually my word during the pandemic. And it really resonated with me because we all have so many possibilities in our life and so many opportunities. They are truly limitless. And we often get so buried in the weeds that we don’t see those. So to recognize that life is full of limitless possibilities. So I guess pausing first so that you can recognize that. And “Grateful”. Practice gratitude. Because studies have shown that when we practice gratitude consistently, we are happier and healthier, and we can better impact the lives of others. And I truly believe that is why we were put on this Earth, is to impact others in our own unique way. And when we can express gratitude, we’re better able to do that.
[00:17:53] Tesse: It is just swan like. Beautiful.
[00:17:59] Lisa: Thank you.
[00:18:00] Paula: So beautiful. I love all that you’ve pause, so that you can think of your limitless possiblities. You’ve sumed it up.
[00:18:16] Lisa: Thank you. That was a great question.
[00:18:19] Tesse: That’s the umbrella. That’s the umbrella, Lisa. It’s not the funnel. Not the funnel.
[00:18:25] Lisa: Agreed. Agreed.
[00:18:29] Paula: I was gonna ask for highlights, but you sumed it up perfectly. Pause, Limitless Possibilities and Gratitude. So we’ll close out by saying, your precious stories and lives matter. And to our listeners, we say continue to share them with us. This also applies to our guests. Others are supported, encouraged, and nurtured when they know that they’re never alone. And so we ask our listeners to continue to head over to “Apple Podcast”, to “Google Podcast”, “Spotify”, or anywhere you listen to podcast, click subscribe, share it with your friends. And if you have found “TesseLeads” helpful, please let us know in your reviews. Again, if you have any topics or questions you’d like us to cover, send us a note. And if you’d like to be a guest on our show, “TesseLeads”, head over to our new website, which is “www.tesseleads” to our contact page and apply.
Thriving On Vulnerability
“I just kind of stopped having shame. I thrive on vulnerability. I get to just be me , I get to make mistakes, and I get to learn from people who have a lot more experience. I think any particular wisdom that I might have at this point in my life just comes from being willing to talk about all the things with people, and hear what they have to say”
– Trust, leadership and ethics speaker Dallin Cooper, author of Get On The Bull
Answers to meeting our goals in life probably depend on trust. We model what we see and reciprocate. Vulnerability is the other side of trust. Vulnerability extends trust. Trusting calls for vulnerability. We need to trust others first. We are trusting them not to hurt us. Scarily, there are no guarantees! We have to put ourselves in a spot where we run the risk of getting hurt. Ironically, to build trust, we have to give others the chance to become trustworthy.
This leads into a whole field of research about how to develop trust, what trust is, and what are the unifying characteristics of the people who you want to be around, identifying who are doing great things and who are able to make differences in the world.
“I am not achieving 100% all the time. I’m trying to do my best. Reality check – we are all going to make mistakes. Honesty is a fundamental ingredient for building trust. Nothing’s destroys trust quite like lying to people all the time. Most of us would also say that honesty is a core element of ethical behaviour. A very important part of building trust is accountability and taking responsibility for your actions. What helps? “Caring about how other people are feeling and what they’re thinking and trying to understand their needs.
[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host, Tesse Akpeki and co-host Paula Okonneh. Our podcast “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space. Here guests share how they are navigating a diverse range of challenges, confronting their dilemmas, and shaping their futures. Our guest today is none other but the awesome Dallin Cooper. Dallin is a speaker, he’s a consultant, and he is the author of a leadership book called “Get on the Bull”. He has founded and sold both a marketing agency and a sustainable dog chew company. And he also just launched his own podcast called “Ethics for Humans”. There’s some fun things that we found out about Dallin, and one of them is that he grew up as a shepherd. Can you believe that? A second thing is that he has lived in China for some time. And the third is that he onced rehabilitated two traumatized rescue Al Packers. Today we are going to be talking about rising to the challenge, and we will have none other than the amazing, awesome, wonderful Dallin Cooper tell us all about that. So welcome to “TesseLeads” and I’ll turn it over to you and Tesse.
[00:01:45] Tesse: Hi, welcome Dallin, and I’m just so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for saying yes, .
[00:01:54] Dallin: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:57] Tesse: You know, you are amazing. I’ve read your work. I heard you on sound view, and I just thought, wow, you’re just someone who I want to connect with. And when I talked to Paula, she agreed. And you know, I’ve listened to a number of shows where you’ve been a podcast guest. And I have come across a book called “Get on the Bull”. And there’s something that stood out for me. And this is a saying, “when you become a person that can be trusted, you become someone that can lead, uplift, and make meaningful change”. Please say a bit more about that.
[00:02:39] Dallin: So I think that trust is probably one of the most important things in the world, period. And there are a few other people who have done some really cool things in the trust space. One of the first attempts at writing a book that I made, and that book has not yet come into existence, and maybe one day it will, was very much all about trust. Because the more I thought about what is it that makes people happy? What is it that makes strong relationships? What is it that makes people fun to be around? To make them good leaders? To make them good bosses? No matter what question I asked, the answer ended up coming back to trust, right? Like, do you wanna make more money? Well, then you need to trust people and they need to trust you. Do you wanna have more free time? Well, you need to trust people to handle things, and they need to trust you to take care of things with a flexible schedule. Like insert whatever your goal in life is here, and the answer is probably trust. And I said that quote at one point, because it really is, if you want to accomplish most things, trust is one of the prerequisites. And obviously that leads into a whole field of research about how to develop trust and what trust is, and that becomes a big thing. But It’s very much a unifying characteristic of the people who you wanna be around and who are doing great things. Who are able to make differences in the world. We were chatting briefly before the show that many of the governments were in different countries. But one unifying factor we have is that governments tend to be really dysfunctional sometimes. And a lot of the population is sitting there being like, wow, why can’t our government just get it together? And it’s because a lot of times half the population doesn’t trust them at any given point in time, right? Can you imagine if you just literally trusted every politician in our current world, I would call you an idiot if you trusted every politician. But wouldn’t that be awesome if they were all trustworthy? They made campaign promises and then they all did them. Like, wow, how neat would that be? And a lot of our governments and our systems and our structures are just completely paralyzed. They’re kind of cut off at the knees because they don’t trust each other. The different people within the system, the administration, the government, they don’t trust each other. The people they’re supposed to be helping don’t trust them. They don’t trust the people they’re helping. And so then you just create this giant mess and nobody actually gets helped, and nothing is actually made better.
[00:05:26] Tesse: I love that answer, cause sometimes another thing that happens is paralysis analysis. You know, people just analyze things to death and do nothing. And it gets so hard to have access and all those kind of things. But you’re right that it all starts with trust. Trust the competent, the capability, the likability, the humility, the echo rather than ego. All those things go into trust, and I really like what you’ve said. In fact, I don’t just like it, I love it. Paula. I love it so much. I’m kind of like gonna sit with that love. I’m passing over to you.
[00:06:00] Paula: Yeah, I mean, I love it. Especially when I know that Dallin talked earlier on prior to this podcast recording, about ethical leadership. And when we think about trust, you think it goes hand in hand with ethics. And I know you place a lot of emphasis on ethics and all, but is still ethical leadership. So tell me about that. You’ve gave us a very good apt description on what trust was. Where does that come into play with ethics? Are they one on the same thing or not? And I know this is a bit unfair. This seems like a very complicated question, but it isn’t. It’s just what I know one of the things you are passionate about.
[00:06:42] Dallin: So this feels kind of like one of those, a square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares type of things. I’m not sure which one is the square and which one’s the rectangle though. Right? It’s like trust and ethics go together a lot, and many of the principles are the same, right? I would say that honesty is a fundamental ingredient for building trust, right? Nothing’s gonna destroy trust quite like lying to people all the time. And most of us would also say that honesty is a core element of ethical behavior. I also believe that a very important part of building trust is accountability, right? Taking responsibility for your actions. We are all going to make mistakes. That is life. Often you actually build more trust by making mistakes than if you do everything right. Because if you let people see you make mistakes, and then you let them see you fix the mistakes, now they know how you handle mistakes. So if all you’ve ever seen from someone is the perfect shiny surface, you have to ask yourself like, okay, what are they hiding? What’s it look like when everything goes wrong? Because is this all front? Is it all fake? Is this like manicured? So when I was doing digital marketing, a lot of my local marketing clients, you know, a dentist or whatever, would work really hard to get all the five star reviews on like Google. I would tell them like, don’t try and get rid of the one star reviews. You actually want one star reviews, because a business that has 4.8 stars or 4.9 stars actually performs better than one that has all five. Cause if you have a thousand 5 star reviews, it’s sketchy. It’s like nobody has that many customers and never messes up. Right? It’s like, did you buy these? Did you bribe people? Are they all your family and friends? Like It feels off to us, and it’s like nobody’s that perfect. You know if you only have like three or four or five star reviews sure, that’s fine. But when you’re up into the hundreds, it’s like really? You’ve never messed up? You’ve never had a misunderstanding that made a customer angry? Yeah, right. What’s more likely is that you have a handful of one star reviews and then people go to the one star reviews and they read the review, and then they read your response. Because they know that you mess up. Like that’s implied by being a person. You aren’t gonna convince someone you don’t make mistakes. They wanna see how you handle it. So I think accountability is a crucial part of building trust, cause people want to see how you handle your mistakes. I would say that accountability is a crucial part of ethics, because, again, if you’re wanting to be a good person, if you’re wanting to be responsible to those around you, you’re gonna mess up. But it’s how you handle those mistakes. It’s how you own them. Take responsibility for your actions. Ethics is kind of a scary field to be in. Because at some point, I’m gonna say something, probably a lot of some things and people are gonna really hate me for it. They are going to be like, but Dallin you are supposed to be this good person that did all the things right. And like, why don’t you practice what you preach? And it’s like, I’m probably gonna lie at some point and someone’s gonna be like, Dallin, you always talk about honesty and how important it is. And it’s like, yep, it sure is important, but that doesn’t mean that I am 100% at it all the time. Like I’m trying. That’s kind of the terrifying accountability thing of this entire field. It’s like trying to build your reputation on helping people to be better people. And it’s like, I don’t know if I’m even a good person yet. So I’m talking in circles a little bit. But you can take these principles. Honesty, accountability, I would say compassion also. Whether you call it compassion or empathy, consideration, perspective. I’ve used all of those words in different ways of caring about how other people are feeling and what they’re thinking and trying to understand their needs. All of those things are things that build trust. They are also things that make you a more ethical person. I would say that ethical people are likely more trustworthy. I would think that there’s probably a correlation that people who are trustworthy are usually also ethical. But it probably isn’t always the case. I think we’ve probably all trusted people before and found out that we shouldn’t have. Because they were not being morally upright, and that’s how it goes sometimes. So there’s a lot of overlap, and there’s a lot of overlap in the principles for sure. A leader who is trusted and worthy of trust is more likely to be unethical leader and vice versa. But they aren’t like quite exactly the same thing, maybe that’s just pedantic.
[00:11:36] Paula: I love your answer. What was going through my mind is that he’s answered it as a true millennial, and why I say that is that. One thing I love about millennials is their honesty and their ability to be transparent. And that has worked in the favor of baby boomers. In that what millennials have done is to say, “hey, we are all humans, we’re gonna mess up. But what we can work on is seeing how we can correct our mistakes and try not to make those mistakes, knowing fully well that you may make those mistakes. But the effort seen in making the correction is what makes you a lot more approachable. And in some ways makes us more compassionate, so that people can see us as who we are. Because I think better leaders are leaders who show those that they’re leading that, look, I’m human. I’m going to err. I’m gonna make mistakes. But I’m here because I wanna help you, and we can grow by me growing. So I love your answer. Thank you for that.
[00:12:41] Dallin: It is interesting. I feel like we’ve really developed that level of, okay, we’re gonna mess up. We’re gonna make mistakes. It’s okay. You need to just, you gotta own those mistakes and grow and move on. And that seems to apply up until you reach a certain level of fame. And then it’s like if you’re really famous, then like cancel culture kicks in, and it’s like, no mistakes or you’re out. And I don’t know how that happened, where it’s like everybody gets mercy up until this level of famous. And then if you say something that we don’t like 10 years ago. It’s over. Your career is ruined. Okay, hopefully I just never end up that famous. Hopefully I’m.
[00:13:26] Tesse: You know I love what you’re saying Dallin. In fact, you can see I’m a fan of yours. You know, I’m super fan of Dallin Cooper. And you know what you’re saying and what Paula has mentioned about you being a millennial, and I think for me that is so rewarding for our future. Cause you know, our future is in good hands because of millennials today. I’m a big believer in that. But, I’m going to make a comment and then ask a question. Cause I’m a big fan of Brene Brown’s work on vulnerability. And being a fan of her work on vulnerability. And she’s also written a book, co-written it on “Shame and Guilt in the Black community”. And that also touched me about how race and vulnerability are tied together. So I’ve read that. And I also recently came across Gary Chapman’s book, which is on Apologies. And the types of apology, how to say sorry and actually mean it. Now, what these things are doing is a revelation to me, because I try and practice what these books are saying, and I’m finding out not easy. Not easy to say, sorry, and admit I mess up and I use what I’m gonna do to put it right and all those kind of things. But on a more kind of deeper level, I’m actually enjoying my life more now, because of that space of release of not being perfect. I never was. So the thing about being, I would ever be perfect in itself was a myth. It was never, never true. So that release of I’m human, I get it wrong, I mess up, I can cause correct, you know, all that. As long as I have a cause, I have a purpose. All those sort of things are so helpful. So I’m gonna come back to you, and this is my question. How did you get to be with this mindset at your age? I mean, I’m kind of like, whoa. How did you get here? What was your journey like coming to this place where you are now?
[00:15:15] Dallin: As my wife would say, it must be terrifying to live in my brain. And that is the thing that she has told me on multiple occasions. You wanna talk analysis paralysis. I am not fun to go to lunch with. Menus are just terrifying to me cause there’s so much to think about. And one of the things that’s kind of hard is we have no clue how other people think, right? Like I’ve often wished I could switch brains with my wife for a day, just like see through her eyes. Because it’s like you must have a fundamentally different view of just like the world than me. And it would be very interesting to be able to see and feel and think how she does. The amount of like compassion and perspective that would give would be so cool. Cause all we have is like our own little brain and narrative. So I don’t know if I actually think that different from like my wife. But I just think about stuff a lot. Like somebody asked me on one of these things, like, how do you come up with these ideas for like this book and these videos and all the things you do? And I was kind of stunned. I was like, I don’t know. You see things happen and then I just think about them for a long time until stuff comes out, right? Until I come up with ideas or answers. And I don’t think that I have extra special insight powers or anything. But I actually really love vulnerability as a topic, because it is the other side of trust, right? We talked about trust and like vulnerability is extending trust. It’s trusting someone else, not getting them to trust you, but you are trusting them not to hurt you. And so it’s like giving someone else the chance. And I have for a very long time just loved that idea. If Brene Brown didn’t already just have it on lock, I would have pursued vulnerability as a topic of expertise more. But it’s like, you know what, Brene, you got this covered way better than I think I ever could. Because I quickly realized after the awkward teenage years, which are just a tough time for everyone and nobody’s comfortable with themselves. I just kind of stopped having shame. I thrive on vulnerability. Like I think it’s a blast often to the concern of everyone around me, because I don’t have any topic that I feel like is off topic. Like I’m comfortable talking with anyone about anything, and vulnerability is something that I really enjoy. I like the act of trusting people. And I think that has caused me to put myself in a lot of situations where I get to learn from other people. Because I don’t have a lot of barriers. I don’t have like the shell and the mask that many people put up to try to protect themselves from that vulnerability. And because of that, I get to just be me and I get to make mistakes, and I get to learn from people who have a lot more experience. And I think any particular wisdom that I might have at this point in my life just comes from being willing to talk about all the things with all the people, and hear what they have to say. Because there have been a lot of times that I’ve said, oh my goodness guys, like here’s this crazy idea. Wouldn’t it be cool if this were the case? Or have you ever thought about this neat concept? And then somebody says “Dallin that’s idiotic, right? Like you couldn’t do that and that would never work. And you say, “oh, you’re right, that is idiotic”. But what if it were this way? And then that version’s better, and they’re like, “okay, maybe that makes sense”. But a lot of times if you’re scared of the vulnerability, you never get past that first step. First, you might not be comfortable sharing the idea at all, so you never get the feedback. Or you share the idea and you get the response down, that’s idiotic. And that shuts you down. Because nobody likes being told that their idea that they think is cool is not cool. I don’t know if you’ve heard the stereotype of like, you know, the kid in their physics class. It’s like their freshman physics class and they’re like, wait, but what if we put a race car on a train and it creates infinite energy and we solve the energy crisis forever? And it’s like, okay, I know that you’ve learned one month’s worth of physics. But I don’t think you actually can solve the energy crisis like way smarter people than you have tried. I was that guy. I was that guy who was like, “hey, it’s one month into ethics class, guys what if this revolutionized ethics forever”? And you know, ethics professor is like, “okay, Dallin that’s a fun idea and all, but there’s some bigger pictures here”. And being willing to just put the stuff out there and get feedback and get criticism, and keep going despite that. Not letting that make you withdraw and quit being vulnerable. I don’t know if that, that’s a very interesting question.
[00:20:11] Tesse: We thought long and hard to ask you that. Cause the things that you’re bringing up to my mind and that is vulnerability to practice it. It’s kind of scary. But as I said, for me, I found it quite liberating. So one of the things I did, I went for counseling, and for the first time in my life I invited my friend to come to this counseling session. I’ve never ever ever ever taken anybody with me to my counseling session. But this was this year. And taking her to this session was taking a risk. But we have drawn closer because she came to that session. We’ve actually become even closer friends because she saw the vulnerability. And just today she just dropped by and said, you are my mind, I’m just thinking about you. Guess what? She was right. I needed her with me today. So there’s something about what you’re saying about the barriers come down. You’re extending trust. But more than that, people see each other rather than see past each other. They actually see you. Obviously not everybody that you can do that with. But when you do it, and when you imagine extending that to our workplaces. Imagine how we are when we are saying, actually, I’m not coping today, I’m struggling here. Imagine how it is when we celebrate together and we know what we are celebrating. Envy and jealousy doesn’t become part of that equation. Just imagine what becomes possible. And with you Dallin, I think we should do more of it. We should actually take the risk and be vulnerable in a safe way, but actually be in that space. Paula, what do you think? What are your thoughts here?
[00:21:50] Paula: I love everything you’re saying. Because yeah, when barriers come down, lots of things float to the top, you know. It’s almost like a little child who says what’s on their mind, but you get really honest answers. You know, when you are vulnerable, when you’re open to hearing things from a different angle and hearing different perspectives. For example, I know we talked about being in different countries and how the cultures differ. There’s some things I’ve sat back in my quiet time and thought, “hmm, that’s a better way of doing what I’ve always known all my life”, you know? So, but Dallin, I love what you said about being vulnerable, because it’s allowed you to be you. You know, people now know this is who Dallin is. And so some of the questions or some of the ideas you put out there, people are thinking it, but they’re not brave enough to say it. And when you do say it, you now put it out open for discussion. And change comes about by being honest and saying things and looking at things from different angles. So I’m happy that you are talking about it. I’m happy that you are comfortable with being vulnerable. Because that’s where change comes about. Many times people talk, in my opinion, negatively about millennials. But I love millennials. I love Gen Z. Because I think they are addressing things that have been there and not been talked about, but need to be talked about.
[00:23:12] Dallin: So the secret is I’m just, I’m barely a millennial, just barely. I’m right at the bottom edge. That shows you how old millennials are now. It’s like, I’m like the youngest millennial. I’m like, there are some, depending on where you draw the line, there are some who would say that I’m the next one, is that Gen Z? I don’t even know.
[00:23:34] Paula: Yes, it’s Gen Z. Yeah. But you’re setting the stage so that Gen Z can do some of the things that you guys haven’t been able to accomplish. Because sometimes what happens is that as we get older and especially when we start families, we are like, okay, that was a great idea when I was 24, but now I have two mouths to feed or more responsibility. This is not such a great idea.
[00:23:58] Dallin: That’s the reason I sold the marketing agency the first time. That was the first business I started. I only sold it once. But that’s the first business I started and you know, we were doing pretty good and it was a blast. But it’s that whole like, I don’t know how much money I’m gonna make next month type life, right? Like that entrepreneurship life of some months are really great, and then some months are really tight. And when my wife was pregnant with our first son, it was like, you know, just the two of us, we make enough to at least get by all the time. But suddenly, once there’s a tiny person that relies on you in the equation, the idea of not knowing how much money you’re gonna make next month or whether you’re gonna be able to buy all the food, it suddenly becomes a lot more terrifying. It’s like, all right stability would be good. Just a little bit .
[00:24:50] Paula: Absolutely. Well, Dallin all good things do have to come to an end. I mean, we could have this conversation for hours, but it looks like we’re probably gonna have to have another podcast recording with you. But I do have one last question, and that is, what are your key takeaways for our listening audience? I know what I’ve gotten from this. But what do you wanna share? So that when the podcast ends, they can say, “hmm, he said something that has stuck with me”.
[00:25:19] Dallin: Oh man, the pressure is on. You may have noticed I am not the best at being succinct.
[00:25:26] Paula: You are.
[00:25:26] Tesse: Yeah, you are.
[00:25:28] Dallin: So I would say from our conversation here, and it’s is such a dangerous one to paint with broad strokes. But in situations where your safety isn’t at risk or anything, push the boundary of what you are comfortable being vulnerable with. Because everybody wants to be trusted, right? There’s a lot out there about how can I better relationships by helping me trust me more? How can I be more trustworthy? But we also have to remember that everyone else feels that way too. And nobody can ever be trusted if we never give them a chance to prove themselves as trustworthy. And the only way we can do that is by being vulnerable. We have to put ourselves in a spot where we run the risk of getting hurt. So that other people have the chance to become trustworthy. And often that will end up putting them in a situation where they’re willing to be vulnerable with you. And just the last thought, again, I think of it so much with my kids, that often if I want them to be honest and open up with me, I need to be honest and vulnerable and open up with them first. We model what we see, we reciprocate. So if you want someone to trust, be vulnerable and trust them first. And that’s really scary. But it makes a big difference in relationships and in life. And like what’s the worst case scenario? Again, outside of extreme circumstances, like you get hurt and you find out that that person isn’t super trustworthy and you can move on and that’s how it goes. But the best case scenario is you make a lifelong friend and grow and learn and become a way better person. And personally I think that’s worth the risk.
[00:27:16] Paula: I am leaving with that phrase in my mind, that no one can be trusted if we don’t give them a chance to be trustworthy. So push that boundary. I love it Dallin, I do love it. And so to our precious listeners, we want you to know that your stories and your lives matter. Just like Dallin said, give everyone an opportunity to prove themself first. Don’t make them guilty first. Innocent until proven guilty in other words. And so sharing your stories with others could support, encourage and nurture them. Listeners may be reassured by knowing they’re never alone. And so for our listeners, please head over to “Apple Podcast”, “Google Podcast”, “Spotify”, or anywhere you listen to podcasts and please click subscribe. And if you have found “TesseLeads” helpful, please let us know in your reviews. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, send us a note. And if you would like to be a guest on our show, “TesseLeads”, head over to “www.tesseleads.com” to apply. We would love to have you. Thanks again Dallin. You’ve been amazing.
[00:28:32] Tesse: You’ve been amazing. Awesome. Refreshing
[00:28:34] Dallin: Thank you for having me.
[00:28:37] Paula: Refreshing. I love that.
[00:28:38] Tesse: Refreshing, honestly. Re-energizing.
Sara Comes Dancing
The choreography of life leads to a growing realisation that dancing in leadership is more relevant as ever. Dance like no one’s watching,
Sara Ramsey’s love of dancing led her to dance in the world amateur championships at the Royal Albert Hall. During the Covid lockdown she reconnected with her love of dance. Bragging rights? She did her fair share of Fox trotting with Anton Du Beke pre his fame. While people baked sourdough bread, she studied the psychology of dance and has developed a course for teams. “Dancing is really good for connecting people. People dance in sync with each other, build trust and connect with others” says Sara.”
Leaders need to be more agile, responsive and adaptable. There is a choreography of people doing different things and thinking differently.
People who work together start dancing together; especially important when they are co-leaders. Watch who tends to lead and who tends to follow. How are you dancing? Sara also fell in love with open floor dancing which she feels embodies emotions. By moving in sync with each other you build that trust connection and start getting into real co-creative moments. Our body tells us a lot. Listen to it. What is it telling you?
Sara’s last words?
“Dancing in sync builds connection between you and your team members. Freestyle dancing enhances creativity, encourages problem solving and sparks innovation. So before you go into your next strategic planning session, you might just want a bit of freestyle dancing. “
[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “TesseLeads” with your host, Tesse Akpeki and co-host Paula Okonneh. “TesseLeads” is a safe, sensitive, and supportive place and space where guests share how they are navigating diverse ranges of challenges confronting their dilemmas and shaping their futures. The theme today is “Sara Comes Dancing” because our guest is none other than Sara Ramsey. And off Microphone we had a good laugh, because we realized that we are part of a club called “Lipstick United”. And Sara, what do you have to say about that?
[00:00:48] Sara: Yeah, we’d all put our lipsticks on we noted as we came into this. So I asked Tesse and Paula, I said, cause you know what happens to a woman without lipstick and which they replied no. And I said, nothing.
[00:01:07] Tesse: You know, it’s so funny.
[00:01:12] Paula: Right. So that’s why “Lipstick United” or is it Lipstickers United. I don’t know which one we’re gonna keep. But yeah, we definitely have a bond, don’t we?
[00:01:23] Tesse: Yeah, I like Lipstick United.
[00:01:27] Paula: Lipstick United.
[00:01:29] Tesse: Oh wow. Sara thank you so much for bringing such a sense of fun. Now I get rather curious, what has led to your love of dancing?
[00:01:41] Sara: Yeah, it wasn’t just the lipstick, honestly. It wasn’t lipstick. I mean, I started dancing when I was six years old. I was the youngest child. My mom was like, this girl has too much energy. We need to do something. So I was sent off to the local dance class and I just fell in love with it, and it became my, became my life. I just loved going and I competed and there was all sort of friends there. And I was competing until I was about, I don’t know, 19 I think. I danced in the, I didn’t come anywhere. But I danced in the world amateur championships at the Royal Albert Hall. So that was very special. I love dancing. And then I reached 19, decided that I wasn’t gonna be a professional born dancer after all. And went into the world of work and sort of taught a little bit. But kind of went into it. So went completely from being something sort of very physical to went all into a left brain world of just thinking and doing all that stuff, and sadly, sadly, didn’t really dance very much at all. Until a few years ago. So I think probably falling in love with dance actually happened a few years ago. I think for me it was other people were baking sourdough in Covid lockdown, I really fell in love with dance.
[00:03:01] Tesse: Wow, that’s amazing. And you know in that time of your dance passion and everything, did you meet anybody famous or anybody who we could recognize. Now I’m gonna put it out there that I am a Strictly Come Dancing fan. Was there anybody whose faces on strictly that you know you actually met on that journey? Come on. Bragging rights, bragging rights.
[00:03:25] Sara: Yeah, I’ve competed against a few of the pros. But Anton Du Beke, I have done more than my fair share of Fox trotting with Anton Du Beke. And he is a pure gen and wonderful man to foxtrot with.
[00:03:38] Tesse: Anton. Wow. Yeah. I wonder how anybody can top that. That’s fantastic. Paula Anton du Beke is one of the judges on “Strictly Right Now”. But he’s one of the nation’s favorite judge you know people, as a professional dancer and now as a judge. He actually won an award recently on NTA for the best judge of the year. .
[00:04:00] Paula: Wow. Wow. So we are hubnobbing with the best here, right?
[00:04:05] Sara: I know. I’m so pleased. I, yeah, I’m so pleased for him. I knew him pre fame and, no it’s great. He’s doing what he loves, which is fabulous .
[00:04:15] Paula: Well, it’s obvious that you love dancing. How has that enriched your life? Again, this is a audio podcast. I can see the smile and the energy stewing from you. But tell our audience how dancing has enriched your life, and I’m sure they can probably glean something from that.
[00:04:33] Sara: Yeah, absolutely I do love dancing. I’ve always loved it. You know, I’ve always been first one up to move around and just the joy of the dancing and the music. I love that. I think where it’s really enriching my life beyond a good boogie with friends, is just kind of, I think we all go around a bit on our heads, like on the sticks of our bodies that moves us around. I think it’s amazing to just really get back into your body. I get up now in between, like during the day and you know, I’ll wander around and have a dance. Cause it’s just, there’s something about just feeling really grounded in your body and just feeling your body. I’m so fascinated by the mind and body, cause whereas we can try and think everything through rationally, actually we need to connect with our body. Our bodies know a lot, and there’s a lot of instinctive there. I think we can make much better decisions. And manage our own emotions and ups and downs if we can really sort of stay in our bodies, and dancing is a brilliant way for doing that. In lockdown, I did a course on, everyone was doing their different things and how they were trying to spend their time. With me it was dancing, I studied the psychology of dance. And how dancing as well is really good for connecting people. So there’s one thing, we’re just moving. They say dance. If you’re gonna get up and do something, dancing is one of the best things you can do. Better than sort of reading or going cycling. Dancing is much better for you. But the power of connect is just fantastic. I developed a course that I did for teams, so at the start of their weekly meetings, they would get up and do some dancing. Which is really fun and just a good way to get up and just the more when people dance in sync with each other, it helps to build trust and connection between people. So that’s what I really love about dancing. That’s the most thing. It’s the way it can connect people to themselves and to each other.
[00:06:26] Paula: I love that. Tesse?
[00:06:28] Tesse: I love what Sara was saying, like you do Paula about connect people to themselves and connect them to each other. You know, connecting to ourselves, sometimes we don’t connect to ourselves. And how can we connect with others if we don’t connect with ourselves? So I just love that. And how dance can be that channel to do that connection. I’m just loving it Paula. I’m just loving it. As Sara is speaking, I’m actually thinking about leadership. And Sara, I’m curious about your thoughts on how the concept of dancing and leadership can be shaped up? You know, how as a metaphor for leadership, how does dancing shape effective leadership? Do you have any thoughts that you can share with us on that?
[00:07:11] Sara: Yeah, I love the analogy for, I think dancing in life, but also dancing in leadership. I think as we go around, we all need to be more agile and move. And I think there is something about dancing. We don’t know what’s coming up to us in life, but we can sort of dance with it. Good, bad changes. We can move around, we can learn to lead, we can learn to follow in different situations. So I think there’s something about sort of the joy of dance as well. Just that sort of movement. We’re all working with each other and I think if we can see ourselves as in a dance with each other. And sometimes maybe it’s a tango and it’s a bit of a big thing. And other times it’ll be a jive and sometimes we’ll just be doing a sort of a slow dance together. So I think that’s just kind of quite a fun way to look at it as we’re all trying to work with each other.
[00:08:00] Tesse: There’s something as you’re saying that Sara, that comes to my mind. Cause sometimes when I’m listening to the judges on “Strictly”, sometimes they’re saying things like shade and light. Sometimes they talk about containing themselves, the dances containing themselves. And sometimes they talk about pace and they talk about positioning. Shed some light on these things in relation to leadership, what are they talking about?
[00:08:27] Sara: Yeah, I think there is something. You know, when people start saying, I used to think that life was about, sometimes I used to say the black and white, sort of the polar world we have. And sometimes I used to say, oh, it’s navigating the gray, right? Working out which gray. And I’ve kind of gone away from that recently to go, life’s about being zebra. It’s about being like blacks, you know? It’s like, it’s about, you know, being both extreme sometimes. So it’s about, you know, shades and light and dark and gray and energy and stillness. All of those things are important in life. And I think for organizations and leadership as well. I think it’s not about being full on the accelerator and drive all the time. It’s about sometimes having a real energy spur. Sometimes sort of stepping back and reflecting and looking around at different areas as well. It’s about different people, you can all be at different sort of energies and it’s sort of a choreography of people doing different things rather than everybody all at the same time. And I think there’s a rhythm, one of the sort of analogy that tend to use with organizations now is finding organizations rhythms. What’s its rituals and rhythms, just to keep a pattern that everyone can run to as well, and keep everyone in line really.
[00:09:36] Tesse: Honestly, I love this choreography of life. Having people know what positions they are going to be in. Who leads, who follows, all those kind of things. You’re just shedding so much light on what obviously is your passion.
[00:09:51] Sara: Yeah, absolutely. And I think around decision making, I think as organizations become much more collective and much more self organizing, really understanding about, you know having the rhythm of how decisions are made and when are they made. And just creating those structures for people so that everyone can then dance and do their own pirouettes as they need and be their own beautiful selves. But doing it in harmony with the group as well. So knowing when to come together and to do a group piece and when to go and do their own thing as well.
[00:10:22] Tesse: So the June pandemic, you say that you went to the place of dance. What did that place of dance give you? Cause that was the pandemic at the worst of times. It was very isolating. It was a horrible time for the world in general and for particular people, it hit them even harder than others. What was dance able to give you at that point?
[00:10:41] Sara: For me, it was suddenly I’m an extrovert. I was suddenly completely on my own. So dancing for me was the way to connect with myself and connect with others. You know, we’d have dance zooms and things like that. So for me, dancing was the way of connecting and just getting up, and I was just dancing around and connecting with the music, and really getting out of your head as well. I think we sort of live in our head. And particularly I think when it’s difficult times and there’s anxiety to just completely sort of just feel life and actually process the emotions. I was recently on a workshop, I’ve fallen in love from doing very structured dancing when I was young, to now doing what’s called open floor dancing. Which is really sort of just letting your body move and the emotions through that. And it’s so good at just processing your emotions. Shaking out, shaking out the nails as some people used to say, and just sort of feeling that through and processing it. So I think there’s something about just embodying emotions. I think you can, sometimes you can think things through and you can deal with things. Maybe if you are, whether you angry, frustration, whether you’re sad, whatever you are feeling, you can try and work it through in your mind. But actually just letting your body feel it and just process it, then the emotions kind of wash through you. And you can kind of, you know, and if you went through and then get to a sort of a more joyful of happier place at the end it.
[00:12:07] Tesse: I’m loving it. Paula, what’s coming into your mind as we listen to Sara?
[00:12:11] Paula: I mean, it has, I mean, fascinating. And I’m just wondering if, without giving any names, if you can, you know, just tell us a fun story about someone in leadership who you saw dancing transform.
[00:12:27] Tesse: Yay. Great question, Paula.
[00:12:29] Sara: Good question.
[00:12:31] Paula: Yeah.
[00:12:33] Sara: I think probably, and just with names, I think there is something about people getting into their bodies. I think that the most sort of powerful thing I’ve seen in a work situation, I think is when people who work together start dancing together. Especially when they are sort of co-leaders. And it’s really interesting to understand there’s something very basic about people moving together and how they move. And I think sometimes what shows up on the dance floor is how things happen in real life, and they can see who tends to lead, who tends to follow. How are you dancing? And I think just moving, by moving in sync with each other you build that trust, you build that connection. You can start really getting into those sort of real co-creative moments. You build quite a strong link, which it would be very hard to do that without, physically it could take you years whereas actually moving together. There’s something quite sort of primal I suppose about that. So I’ve seen people really co-create who don’t know each other well and just. Because to co-create, there’s a vulnerability there, and I think once you start moving and building that trust, it’s very powerful. So I think that’s the things that I’ve really seen. And I’m keen to explore that more. I’ve been doing some work with Hermann Muller , who’s a mind body therapist. And really it’s kind of getting people into that co-creation space and moving together and seeing what comes out of that. It’s an adventure.
[00:14:03] Paula: It sounds like an adventure, which is exactly what “TesseLeads” is all about, you know?
[00:14:09] Tesse: Adventure yeah. You’ve got it Paula. You never know what’s going to come out at the end, but you just kind of stay open and vulnerable to find out.
[00:14:19] Sara: I’m fascinated as well. One of the things that I’d love to do, I think is particularly quite a lot of women, I think, who sort of, probably my generation I suppose, going into the workplace, going very sort of left brained, kind of very much in our heads and trying to work things through. And I think there can be a bit of a disconnection really. And I think starting to really kind of reconnect with that and be more embodied, which I think is quite a female way of being as well is really interesting as well, I think.
[00:14:51] Tesse: That’s fascinating being back into your body, connecting with parts of your body. As you’re saying that Sara, one of the things that strikes me in Africa, there’s a bit about knowing what part of your body, your emotions are, you know, and locating where that is, you know. And often for me, mine is in my stomach. It’s in my tummy. When I’m really nervous my stomach gets so tight, you know. And so sometimes when I’m in meetings and stuff and that my stomach is getting tight, I’m kind of thinking, what’s going on here? What do I need to do? Because it’s actually speaking, giving me a message. Does that sound just totally not making sense or what do you say ?
[00:15:33] Sara: I think that’s true, and I think it’s when we override our body, our body tells us a lot. And I think it’s when we override that. I know with me it’s when I override that and think, oh no, I’m just being silly. That’s the things I don’t regret a lot in life. But often I think, oh, I kinda knew that. I think there is something about our body and tuning into that is really important, I think.
[00:15:55] Tesse: Yeah. Paula well thought you’re very quiet.
[00:15:59] Paula: I am intrigued and bowled over by you know the interconnectivity between, you know, leadership and dance and the rhythm. And you know how, especially as Sara said in some organizations where people are just put to work together and once they start dancing, they get in sync. And I may be wrong. But they get in sync and so it seems like they come out of the dance session or whatever with better synergy than when they went in. That’s what I’m really kind of thinking about.
[00:16:34] Sara: There’s a real connection. There’s a real connection there. That’s really kind of quite amazing to see. I was doing some work with one organization where it was a team all around the world that never met each other. And you know when everyone’s dancing to Stevie Wonder in sync. Not only is it fun, there is a real connection there.
[00:16:54] Tesse: Yeah, I mean I love the idea of dancing to Stevie Wonder in sync. And you know, as you say that one of the words that comes to me in relation to dancing is somatic dancing. Focusing on inner experience of dancing and movement. Does that kind of resonate with some of the things that you are sharing with us today?
[00:17:14] Sara: Yeah. I dunno much about somatic dancing actually. That’s a new one on me. I need to explore that one.
[00:17:21] Tesse: I think we’ll talk a bit more about that. But you know, I used to be very skeptical, I have to say about somatic dancing. Until I met a lovely woman who lives in San Francisco and she was into it and she got me curious about it. And now, I just think that sometimes it’s really an interesting way of doing exactly what you’re speaking about. Actually being in the movement, and actually intentionally focusing on an internal experience of movement rather than external experience or result of movement. So sometimes, particularly now that I’m kind of a bit stressed, et cetera. I actually do this with myself where I’m listening to music and I’m dancing on the inside.
[00:18:06] Sara: Oh wow. Amazing.
[00:18:07] Tesse: Yeah, and it actually helps me. Paula sent me some music yesterday and it’s kind of like finding a way to listen to the music and then it’s an internal movement. I find it very, very de-stressing.
[00:18:23] Sara: Okay. That sounds amazing. And so it means you don’t actually have to get up and move as well. You can just, I think I need, cause otherwise I just dance everywhere at the moment, I don’t care.
[00:18:33] Tesse: It’s kinda of relieving of trauma as well, you know. And what I find for me, it’s actually introducing a kind of lightness around the thoughts. So like thinking of a thought as a feather.
[00:18:47] Sara: Yeah.
[00:18:47] Tesse: And like, and then you’re listening to the music. What I find is it actually helps detaching the thought from the intensity. This somatic stuff is quite helpful. I started from being quite skeptical, so let me put it that way. Quite skeptical.
[00:19:03] Sara: No, I think that, I think it makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. And I think it’s interesting with the trauma, you know, different levels of trauma that people go through. I think that is something where, you know, that disconnection from the body, it’s more of us doing that than we realize, I think. And I think anything that sort of help embody us and to help sort of help process those emotions and then also sort of help us stay grounded to sort of help us moving forward, I think is just really, yeah, is really fundamental. And dancing isn’t for everyone. I kinda get that. I think it’s an easy route, you know, into things. And it’s good physically, but I think to me, it’s more about this thing emotionally and mentally of what it can do. And I think it’s interesting about the emotions is how you can, you know what the body does affects the mind, but the mind affects the body as well. And so just sort of starting to express different things through your body and just letting yourself dance like no one’s watching, isn’t it? It’s always the expression.
[00:20:06] Paula: That’s so true. That’s so true. You know, I could stay and continue listening to you till dark. It’s dark.
[00:20:13] Tesse: So could I, Yeah.
[00:20:16] Paula: It’s not dark where I am. But are there any other things, I mean, we heard about somatic dancing from Tesse. Is there anything that we don’t know that any little thing that you haven’t told us about?
[00:20:29] Sara: Yeah, to me it’s like getting people, I think sometimes people are frightened by the word dance. But just getting up and moving, right? Five minutes here and there is the thing. And putting on the music, whatever it is that you like and for the mood that you are in as well. You know, I think sometimes we get stuck in emotions. It’s like, if you feel angry, if you feel sad, just shake it out, really. Shake it out, have a clearance of it. And with your teams as well. You know, like, I think it is, you know, people are often online. I think we’re sitting there in long zoom calls. It’s like, let’s have a dance. There’s like two types of dancing. If you dance in sync, it will build connection between you and your team members. If you dance freestyle, that will create problem solving and innovation. So before you have anything, you might just want a bit of freestyle dancing.
[00:21:20] Tesse: I love it. I totally, it’s very fascinating, you know. Rich, rich things that we can do. You know, anybody can get up and do free dancing, you know.
[00:21:33] Sara: Yeah. Enjoy it and your will move. It just, the key thing is to get out of your mind. I think just your body kind of knows how to move to what it needs to do. So just go with it.
[00:21:43] Tesse: I love it.
[00:21:45] Paula: Absolutely love it. So we’ve heard something different today from Sara, haven’t we? I learned something every day and I certainly haven’t been disappointed by you Sara. Thank you. And to our guests, your precious stories and lives matter. Sharing them with others could support, encourage and nurture them, just like we heard from Sara. Listeners may be reassured by knowing that they are never alone .To our listeners we ask that you head over to “Apple Podcast”, “Google Podcast”, “Spotify”, or anywhere you listen to podcasts, and please click subscribe. If you find “TesseLeads” fascinating, please let us know in your review. And if you have any questions or topics you’d love for us to cover, send us a note. If you’d love to be a guest on “TesseLeads”, head over to www.tesseleads.com to apply.
“Emotionally it’s very difficult to start seeing the person that you love slip away. This is my second round of caregiving. My heart goes out to all carers of patients with dementia. It’s hard for the carers. Really, really hard. It’s hard for the person being cared for too. I can’t, you can’t take care of someone else unless you take care of yourself. I’ve been out five times in the evening in the last two years without my husband. That’s not much.
As Frank’s ability to do things has decreased, my need to spend a little more time away to go to the theatre or whatever has increased.” Carol’s honesty is heart-warming. Something most people will relate to is her Covid experience. “I’m a very social person, and so being at home alone has really been difficult. And I wasn’t alone, I was with my husband. But having been on the road for 28 years and doing a hundred to 150 cities a year, this was really just like the door slamming in your face. And I’m sure a lot of people experience that and much worse.” Carol shares her story of coping with Covid, running a business and dealing with a much-loved husband with Lewy Body Dementia and Parkinson’s disease. He also has spinal stenosis. She includes tips for self-care, caring for a loved one while running a business, and at the same time not losing your mind.
The Accidental Doctor
Dr Mick Rogers or “the accidental doctor “as he describes himself says “It’s all about the people, not just process”. Anywhere people are part of the process, they’re the most important part of the process. The soft aspects of people are the tricky stuff, the stuff that you can’t apply a model for, or you can’t work out on the spread. It requires engagement and trust and risk and exposure with people. This is where story telling matters. Stories are so important because it’s how we relate to each other.
“We still create stories that help us explain what’s going on around us. And it’s the engagement in those stories, I think which is important and exceptional “stresses Mick. Rich discussion can start us thinking and talking differently about what good looks like and what progress look like. Our considerations can rest on how we like to be with the other people in the organisations we find ourselves in. Accidentally Mick stumbled into being accepted for a doctorate course. “I had a kind of commercial agreement with my company and I had an emotional agreement with my wife to do some more studying for a few years’’.
Carole Levy - Skits, Cartoons, and Trust
A Home Away From Home
A home away from home describes Marta Maretich. Marta was born in Port Harcourt, Nigeria. “I thought it was the best thing ever. I thought it was the coolest thing ever.” “We had a different background. I always felt different – like we knew about a bigger world. When you spoke to people in Bakersfield, you were met often with incomprehension.
They really didn’t get it. There is something about being someone like me, where none of it is obvious. If we don’t have a conversation, you’d never know. So you have to know me.” “I feel I spend a lot of my work trying to explain my life and get people to pay attention to its details. You can look at my life in a superficial way which is the tip of the iceberg. You can say, oh, she’s just this girl from California, went to Berkeley, it’s all fine. But when you start picking it apart, nobody’s life is really like that.” The Possibility of Lions”. It is a story about loss, love and the difficulty of finding a home in a changing world. The fictional book speaks about an American family, the McCall family, and they’ve always lived in Nigeria. The Biafra civil war comes in 1967 and they have to flee Nigeria as refugees and return to the United States, where they returned to a small town in San Joaquin Valley, California.
From Acting to Facilitation
As an actor, I watched amazing people struggle with life. I was interested in helping people see each other through the experience of each other and hope that they are going to now together do really important work in the world. Sharon talks about DEI which stands for “Diversity Equity and Inclusion”. “During the pandemic, my heart broke and changed shape. It had more capacity for courage. I had lots of conversations with my courage in 2020. And I invested in the education. I wanted to have bravery and to have a voice, and to take up space, and to know how to stand much stronger in my dignity. And I did that with deep support, from many sources and many people and other leaders who have gone before me.”
Renee Reisch - My Personal Story
Renee Reisch’s personal story is honest and vulnerable. Thoughts about care, compassion, and kindness soak through Renee’s voice. “Showing kindness, compassion and caring to yourself is not selfish, it’s selfless. It is not possible to pour from an empty cup. You need to you fill your own cup for and then pour from the overflow. Sometimes we need to go within, rather than searching outside of ourselves.
The journey is not just about the losses, it’s the total picture – what we find along the journey of our life.” says Renee. “ I lost my voice. My voice was a metaphor for what I needed to find in my own life.” “ I didn’t know what the new normal would be for me, with no voice interacting with people. I had learn a new way to communicate from all the years of just speaking my own voice but never speaking my true voice. And then losing it was to be able to find the true voice that was always within.” The Wizard of Oz, an American musical fantasy produced by Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer is close to Renee’s heart. Dorothy is directed to follow a yellow brick road that goes to the Emerald City, The Wizard of Oz’s home. “The first was a “Scarecrow” who was looking for a brain. He was the smartest one there. Then they came across a “Tin man” desires a heart. He had the biggest heart of all “The Cowardly Lion” lacks courage, but turns out, has all the courage and more. The Wizard is revealed to be just an ordinary man when Toto (the dog) pulls back a curtain.” reminds Renee. The Wizard reminds the three friends that they always had the qualities they sought. Dorothy always had the power to return to Kansas with the help of the ruby slippers, but had to find that out for herself. “There is no place like home” Dorothy gratefully exclaims.
Loving Better - The Power of Conscious Thinking
“ Everybody’s life is precious, if we can come from that place to give ourselves a chance to remember that sometimes. Be really generous and kind with ourselves when we don’t remember it. “ Becoming human is the phrase that really resonates. Becoming, evolving and developing is something that never stops. Deborah has lived in rural Sussex most of her life. She had her son at 27, and then another two children at the time she was 33. “I’ve always really valued the family life, and friends, and making meaning.” She has been driven by wanting to make a difference.
When I encountered the arts, it helped her find an important way of making sense and understanding the world.” She was the first person in her immediate and extended family to go to university. That was a real gift, It took a lot of courage to go, because there wasn’t any history of anyone having had any academic achievement and she experienced a lot of imposter syndrome. She absolutely loved it and she loved the learning. Today, her youngest daughter is doing her PhD!
My Balancing Act
Andy Temte’s take on second chances. Most of us are out of balance, and most of us need that kind of heavy introspection at times, and really need to look inside and ask ourselves questions about who we are, who we want to be, and the impact that we’re having on others. “If somebody that’s placed me in a box actually spent the time to really understand what makes me tick, they would find a much, much more complicated story
. I’ve only been married to one woman, but I’ve been married to her twice “Andy opens up. “In my late thirties, my very early forties I had a lot of success and was wildly successful by most people’s metrics. Money, family, cars, boats, all the usual societal metrics that people use. But something was really missing from my life, I was all work all the time, not as present as I should have been in my family. And my wife and I split up and it was a real wakeup call, the process of divorce. You don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone. I realised I really had to do something different.
Professor Kandola Live and Uncut
As part of an inclusive environment, how can we start? How can we, how can I create an environment that is inclusive, that is generous, that is caring, that is kind and nourishing and also produce the goods?
Professor Binna Kandola admits “This is a process of learning and learning, being self-reflective, getting feedback and actually trying to do better is the most important thing. “I had to educate myself when I was writing the book Racism at Work; the Danger of Indifference. I am learning myself. There’s lots of other things that I don’t know about. I am learning about myself! Sometimes I just need to listen. When somebody tells me something, I need to pay attention. Obviously its up to me to make up my own mind. That’s the big, biggest thing I’ve learned”.
Why Relationship Matter
Relationships matter to Desire Anderson because as a young recruit Desiree was exposed to fantastic pieces of work where she helped with diversity and equity programmes and leadership development.
She was inspired by Nelson Mandela who having been released took the whole quality of forgiveness, collaboration and diversity to a different level. She mirrored this devotion by implementing practices not only in society as a whole, but in organisations. . Forging new relationships and connections with people became part of her DNA, and part of her superpower.
Amazing Coach Max Ekesi
In tough times he invites us to ask” how can you create an opportunity out of the situation? By helping others it’s incredible how much you help yourself.” There is nothing he loves more than getting involved with people outside of his professional work and helping to solve problems.
If You Can Dream It, You can be it
“Everybody has something to give and you don’t have to be a Beyonce or, you know, a Rhianna or someone huge to be able to give, just give what is within, what you have to offer, what you can afford to offer, no matter how small it is, it’s still valuable What you think is really small might actually be really huge to someone else. We hear success stories, what we don’t know; the story behind these success stories. Often success does not come overnight. There are struggles” says Tomide Awe.
Tomide has been raised to find ways to be persistent and to be creative – keeping her eye on the price. When she was in school, especially in high school, she failed a lot of exams, especially in junior school. Her parents were great, ensuring that the opportunities that she did not have materialised. Her mum did not let her give up and would sit her down, and work with her to find out what she was good at, whilst continuing to improve in areas she was not so good at.
Resilience Through Adversity
The story of Robert McCrea – a successful producer and actor, reads like something out of a Hollywood movie. His personal journey screams “resilience through adversity .” Rob’s father managed to escape from the prison camp. He was a refugee from Burma at the end of the second world war whose reference for fathering was the Japanese prisoner of war camp which wasn’t much fun. His grandfather was executed in front of his father. Rob’s grandmother managed to escape from the women’s prison camp with two of her daughters. They managed to collect Rob’s father and his slightly older brother from the men’s prison camp. With all of the guns, they actually had to cross the battle plane to get to the other side.
The two week walk through the jungle, from a place called Michiana in Burma through the jungle to Lido road, which is where the allied forces were based could only take place at night time. Unfortunately, they didn’t all make it on that journey. This environment that Rob was born into with very high achieving brave and strong women. His grandmother underwent hardships that you can’t even begin to imagine! Brought up by a father who knew anything can happen in the world, Rob become a very resilient child who grew into a very resilient young man. Rob and his sister lived in a lot of different Asian countries without actually going to Burma. His father was keen that his children had the opportunity to live and be schooled in those countries, not as expats, but as locals. While they were in touch with where they came from, they had no understanding of prejudice. For an early age Rob and his sister realised the importance of being non judgemental.
Switched On with Compassion Accountability
During the pandemic, a new meaning came to Dr Nate with compassion mixed with accountability. This is even more valuable, and the work with clients is more important at that time, when compassion needs to be reconciled with accountability. Every day with Covid -19 opens a different chapter. The need for balance has never been more important as every day it takes on a new meaning.
Dr Nate admits that his personality is not naturally compassionate or naturally empathetic. “I’m self-centered. I want to work on things. I prefer to work on tasks than be with people by nature. So I’m a pretty selfish task-oriented person by nature, by personality. So it’s a constant journey of constant struggle. But I grew up around a family that had amazing values and showed me these things.” How he treats people depends on whether his compassionate switches are on or off.
Poetry In Motion
Life can be Poetry in Motion as Kate Hammer invokes the call of Madonna ( as mother ) “not about performance or conformance, the invitation is to walk, step in, or step out with compassion, care, soothing and empathy. “ Inside the rings that Kate and her husband exchanged were the letters WWO the number 2 and the letter B, which stands for where we ought to be from a Quaker song based on the tune of an old Anglican hymn called “simple gifts”. “I can turn and turn and come down just right. If I am lucky and find where I ought to be.
” We can suffer losses or face the horror to a loss that is impending. There’s a different kind of horror to a loss that’s totally unexpected. Trauma kicks. A dream turns into the nightmare that you were not expecting. The heartbreak opens a window of grief. For Kate this happened when her mother died unexpectedly. Kate promised herself to bear that responsibility with grace. Quite strangely she realised that she had become the mother. She had always had a mom who she had been close to. She mothered her daughter who had a grandmother. Kate’s promise was to do something that her mother had never been very good at. This is to invite people in, to ask for help, to seek support, to admit when she did not understand things. Learning how to do that asking has been one of her greatest gifts.
Self Love Matters
Self love matters! Nancy White tells us why. It not only empowers us, it also helps us to be able to love and empower other people. We’re all unique and different. If we can’t love ourselves first and foremost, we can not love anybody else. Part of self-love is those things that are not only in our physical and financial arena, but in the spiritual and emotional arena. Whether it’s setting goals, going through healing processes, making these things a priority in this season in life, self-love is the fuel that enriches our lives. Sometimes poor self image gets in the way. It is so important for us to have around us people we know, like and trust.
Esua Goldsmith and Being An Only
In Search Of Meaning
When It's Make or Break
For Sade Marriott, Podcast Host at Banana Island Living it was either make or break It was either break down and cry. I was the only Black woman in my village. It was lonely. I had a little baby, so I volunteered, I reached out, I made connections and I cared for other people. I genuinely felt most people were positive because I am determined to find positivity wherever. I became part of my village community. Providing solutions rather than problems is key. If there’s anything I’ve learned is humility. When I did my PGCE my mentor who was younger than me, marked me down for interaction with the other staff.
My daughter who was home from school at that time saw I was really having a hard time said, “mommy you’re too well dressed. Honestly you’re going to this school and you’re dressed like this? You have to fit in.” Once I took my mentor on board, I began making her cups of tea, I began rolling in baggy pants. I became sloppy and her new best friend. It worked. I did what I needed to do! In light of the Black Lives Matter conversations that we needed to have. I realised the importance of making other people comfortable and being more aware and better prepared to be inclusive and supportive. It is a fine line between being aware and making excuses. I believe it is critical to treat everybody as you would want them to treat you no exclusions, everybody. “
Nadine Robson-Mum's Inspiration Lives
Nadine Robson’s mum’s inspiration lives and is the theme of her conversation today. At heart Nadine’s mum was all about love and just being a mum. That was what she really wanted to be. She went through her own experiences of mental illness.
Unfortunately, through some of those experiences, she made some decisions that were really difficult, and she made some poor judgment calls. The side effect of that was that Nadine was taken into care when she was 11 years old and taken out of the family home. This meant she didn’t grow up with her brothers from that age. That was really tough. It was not easy to go through that experience. Nadine Robson and Darren founded the MOE Foundation, an empowering coaching community that screams love and care.
My Delicate, Balancing Act-Sarah Giles
Sarah Giles’ delicate, balancing act is the constant juggling of motherhood, career and everything else. After a 15 year plus career in HR she quit in the lockdown, resigning from her head of HR position. “Looking from the outside, I probably looked like I had it all together, but inside I didn’t. I have to set clear boundaries, focus on being a mum and have time for myself as well. “When you are so busy looking after other people it’s very easy to lose yourself in the process. We put our own self-care off I’ve learnt so much about myself. A lot of that is through my own coaching journey.
I think it’s things that I might not have ever done before.” remarks Sarah. Sarah constantly asks herself the question “Who am I? “ She finds she is constantly evolving. As soon as she gets to a place where she thinks she is the person she wants to be, she discovers that she is growing again.
Changing The World With Wellness
We all want to change the world with wellness, but it helps to remember that “Resilience helps us to stay grounded no matter what happens to us” – Resmaa Menakem “My Grandmother’s Hands. We close our expectation gaps by actually acknowledging each other, acknowledging ourselves.
We acknowledge what we do well and learn what we do not do so well. Rather than see failure as something that is bad, we see failure as something that helps us to do even better. In fact, some people say of failure that it’s the first attempt in learning. Agility is using this time as experimental space to fail forward, to succeed more, and to sustain success through purpose, intention, commitment, and impact.
Bonnie Marcus - Not Done Yet
Bonnie Marcus, author of Not Done Yet recalls her first big job “I had no qualifications what so ever for that job. I was barely managing my own check book, let alone running a business with 30 doctors. I somehow did really well in the interview, convincing them that I was the right person; or let me say that I was smart enough to learn. And they hired me. And a year and a half I ran eleven centers up and down the East coast in the U S for that company.
And that was the beginning of my business career. So I often say I’ve always learned business on the job. And I had mastered how to show up confidently and own the value that I could bring. Not faking it by the way, because I couldn’t”
People's Precious Live Matter
“People’s Precious Lives Matter” says Steve Morris, Vicar of St Cuthbert’s, North Wembley. “I made a decision when I became a Vicar that I actually would not cover up the fact that I’ve had problems in the past, sometimes with depression and anxiety, I just wasn’t. I was going to be honest about it, cause I didn’t want people thinking that I was some kind of superhero and I found it one of the most useful parts of my ministry is just to say,
if you’re feeling bad, talk to me about it, tell me what’s happening says the gifted Steve Morris.” His sharing with TesseLeads takes us through the highs and lows of life, his father, his wife and himself. Yet these struggles have served to strengthen his resolve and to cast a light on what really matters to him.
When It's OK not to be Okay
20 year old Presence Plumb inspired Tesse and Paula as she talked about when ” it is ok not to be ok.” Presence Plumb launched her podcast “It Starts with Action” in a spirit of curiosity and an intention to bring about change. Presence charts her journey from the United Kingdom where she was born to Hong Kong. What was meant to be a short stay
turned into a seven year stint, with young Presence being bullied for poor grades. She become obsessed with fitting in and with becoming excellent. She was criticised for ‘being fat’. It was no surprise that in the face of such criticism, Presence became anorexic at 14 years and had a 3 months stay in hospital.
The Magic of Thinking and Transformation
Lisa Richards - Resilience Finding Hope
TesseLeads was inspired by Tony Akpeki , the late brother of Tesse Akpeki. It is a safe, sensitive, supportive place and space to share, hear and tell your stories and experiences.
Be Our Guest
Your voice matters. Your story is unique. TesseLeads creates the place and space to share your story with the world.
Be Our Guest
Your voice matters. Your story is unique. TesseLeads creates the place and space to share your story with the world.